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Burnout is real for open source maintainers

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Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#31

Post by devsda »

FinnLobsien wrote: post #5

If you have a hobby project like writing a blog, crocheting, or almost any other creative hobby, you can dip in and out however it suits you. If you deal with major life events, sicknesses, etc., you can leave the hobby and come back. Nobody is paying you for it, so nobody can complain (maybe the friends who miss you, but it's not actively impacting the real world). Open source is one of those weird things where your…

And the expectations

- People asking for and always expecting new patterns and colors.

- Raise hell if you miss a few superficial stitches and demand immediate patch work.

- No exit path without complaints. If you find it unsustainable and ask for help with the cost of materials for the *next* batch while the current batch is still out there and works fine, you are blamed for (literal) rug pulling.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#32

Post by dmos62 »

egeozcan wrote: post #18
FinnLobsien wrote: post #5

If you have a hobby project like writing a blog, crocheting, or almost any other creative hobby, you can dip in and out however it suits you. If you deal with major life events, sicknesses, etc., you can leave the hobby and come back. Nobody is paying you for it, so nobody can complain (maybe the friends who miss you, but it's not actively impacting the real world). Open source is one of those weird things where your…

When I was a kid, we always had New Year's (read: Christmas) decorations (the maximum that wouldn't be out of place in a mostly Muslim country) on a small park in my neighborhood. One year they never appeared, and people were enraged . The guy the city hired every year had a mob in front of his door. People's letters to the authorities got no answer, so suddenly he apparently became their contact person. I was buying…

That sounds almost surreal. Pretty wild how my model of society doesn't account for this.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#33

Post by piker »

We bumped into this at one point looking to switch our Rust GUI framework and found the best alternatives also suffered a core issue because they both (and almost all Rust GUI frameworks) depended on the same `winit` crate. The `winit` maintainer seemed massively under water.

We wrote about it: https://tritium.legal/blog/desktop

Honestly, I don't know if open source works outside of a few massive projects any more.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#34

Post by avaer »

arikrahman wrote: post #4
Devasta wrote: post #3

This is unironically why the AGPL3 is the best license. No need to worry about "virality" or derivative works or any of that, just set it and forget it. On top of that, corporations will avoid you like the plague, ensuring that your audience is other AGPL3 users.

I am happy with the network solution AGPL provides on top of GPL. I think a new AGPL version needs to come out that addresses rewriting codebases with AI and claiming new original work.

> I think a new AGPL version needs to come out that addresses rewriting codebases with AI and claiming new original work.

I agree.

In the current state of OSS, if you AGPL something meaningful, someone else will re-slopfactor into MIT and take the credit, while being glorified for providing a more "open" alternative.

Or they just ask the AI to port your AGPL code into their proprietary codebase and not tell anyone.

Enforcement of license violations in the age of AI needs a 180.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#35

Post by FinnLobsien »

avaer wrote: post #28
FinnLobsien wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value created vs value captured equation of OSS must be one of the most lopsided things ever. If you’re at Google and invent Kubernetes you might still capture 0.000001% (probably less) of the economic value created by Kubernetes, but you probably enjoy very generous comp. OSS doesn’t have any of that, besides being extremely in demand as a consultant or whatever.

> besides being extremely in demand as a consultant or whatever Not necessarily. AI has significantly reduced the marketability of that angle, when people can just ask AI about your OSS project. That is to say, it's only getting more lopsided.

Sure, but I also feel like at the higher level, you’re not necessarily looking for implementation alone, but for “what should we be doing in the first place?”, which AI can’t help with

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#36

Post by jlg23 »

hypfer wrote: post #27

I find the term "burnout" in context of FOSS quite infuriating, as it is usually being used to invalidate a real problem. Instead of talking about concrete misbehavior by concrete individuals or institutions, "oh that poor guy is suffering from foss burnout" is thrown in, and instantly, any thought or action that might change anything about the situation is stopped and discarded. It depersonalizes a problem that is _…

I think you are doing the post injustice by hijacking it. FOSS maintainers can get a burnout even without toxic users - hard deadlines and the understanding that people really rely on your project can do that to you.

e.g.: About 25 years I had developed some blogging software in the style of usemod (single executable, data stored in ./data) for coordination of and reporting about protests on throwaway VMs. This initially was a weekend project but spiraled out of control when it made its way through Europe and people called me for setups or features for other actions. My burnout was the result of trying to help grass root organizations while also being politically active myself and having a full time job. The solution was basically what the article says:

* invited more maintainers by dumbing down the implementation so that one does not need a black belt in perl to hack on it

* created minimal docs

* I found hoster in the scene who was competent and willing to do pro bono hosting in exchange for me being available in case of problems (he never called me).

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#37

Post by FinnLobsien »

whatever1 wrote: post #29
subygan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and nobody is willing to pay for it.

In the past it kinda worked out, because the code of OSS acted as the portfolio of the developers, who would get hired by big corps. (Today with LLMs you have no way of knowing who was the original author) We definitely do not pay enough for the utility we get from OSS. But on the other hand do we want do copyright in code? Also when you pay for something you can hold liable the vendor if things go south (security ho…

In a way it’s good that the equation is so lopsided. A massive part is that software can be replicated infinitely for free. This is why the scale of the value created is so giant.

I definitely do think it’s crazy that someone whose software gets dozens of millions of downloads A DAY can end up making less than someone building a mediocre SaaS app and getting acqui-hired 2 years later.

For the record, I think the VC - Startup ecosystem is incredibly valuable. But it IS crazy how essential software can go essentially unrewarded.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#38

Post by mezyt »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #20

Corollary: if software requires constant revisions it didn't actually cover the initial problem scope, and degenerated into a high-latency service state-machine powered by coders. =3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect

Makes sense for small tool like ls, and doesn't for things that are actually complex like the python language or sqlite.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#39

Post by luke5441 »

whatever1 wrote: post #29
subygan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and nobody is willing to pay for it.

In the past it kinda worked out, because the code of OSS acted as the portfolio of the developers, who would get hired by big corps. (Today with LLMs you have no way of knowing who was the original author) We definitely do not pay enough for the utility we get from OSS. But on the other hand do we want do copyright in code? Also when you pay for something you can hold liable the vendor if things go south (security ho…

Wouldn't one be able to tell from basic research if a project is legit or not. E.g. looking how the developer handles support? If no HM does take OSS work into account, one other reason for publishing my code goes away. Might as well post it as freeware if I want to share it.

Re: Burnout is real for open source maintainers

#40

Post by FinnLobsien »

dmos62 wrote: post #32
egeozcan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, we always had New Year's (read: Christmas) decorations (the maximum that wouldn't be out of place in a mostly Muslim country) on a small park in my neighborhood. One year they never appeared, and people were enraged . The guy the city hired every year had a mob in front of his door. People's letters to the authorities got no answer, so suddenly he apparently became their contact person. I was buying…

That sounds almost surreal. Pretty wild how my model of society doesn't account for this.

A good way to understand how much we thanklessly rely on some professions, Google pictures of any garbage disposal strike
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