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Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

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Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#31

Post by sph »

turzmo wrote: post #25
jdw64 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to know quite a lot about the East. Buddhism and Taoism are a bit different, of course, but your understanding is largely in line with how Eastern popular thought actually sees things. It seems like you've done a fair amount of business with Easterners.

Would either of you have a recommendation on where to start learning about either?

My journey into this world started with Watts' "The Way of Zen", and later, with his posthumous book "Tao: The Watercourse Way"

And I am a big fan of Ron Hogan's "Getting Right with Tao" translation/modern interpretation of the Tao Te Ching.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#32

Post by sph »

jdw64 wrote: post #24
sph wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness The visual metaphor from Taoists is being like 'uncarved wood'. Western Zen has been bastardised and commercialised, whereas one can look into Taoism to find many of the same concepts that, by virtue of their own simplicity, have remained timeless. The "problem", so to speak, with Zen is being associated with Buddhism, which has a long and intricate history…

You seem to know quite a lot about the East. Buddhism and Taoism are a bit different, of course, but your understanding is largely in line with how Eastern popular thought actually sees things. It seems like you've done a fair amount of business with Easterners.

I am just another western poser that has sought peace of mind reading Eastern philosophy. I am no expert.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#33

Post by sdsdfsdff344sd »

lostdog wrote: post #2

I have some coworkers that are similar in everything--education, work ethic, and intelligence--but some of the tick out ML ideas that work like clockwork, while others get hits rarely if ever. I cannot tell what makes it work for some and not others. Their ideas both sound equally good. Sometimes a coworker will be an ML star for a year or two, but then suddenly run out of steam. It's brutal to watch. I used to think…

It's not just ML research; that's just human nature.

We like to see hard-working, God-fearing people minting raw knowledge from Mount Olympus itself, whereby each shard of crystalline insight is carved meticulously by the Apprentice over the course of a productive and morally pure career.

The reality is it's some skill plus the occasional drive-by of an unknown force of nature, hitting you on the head with a shattered fragment of insight whose provenance you'll remain completely ignorant of. I'd say we just revert back to invoking the muses. It was a fine explanation.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#34

Post by andai »

isoprophlex wrote: post #16
jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

"To be done with doing", from Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea novels, always struck me as such a powerful phrase. An entire state of mind boiled down to 5 words. But then again I remember her saying eastern philosophy greatly influenced her writing, if I'm not mistaken

To be done with doing, would appear to require passive income?

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#35

Post by ffsm8 »

jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

When I read the title I thought it was about running machine learning algorithms on AMD/Zen processors

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#36

Post by almarcher »

Stepping away from the work to find inspiration, to allow the subconscious time to process everything, to present your conscious mind ideas is necessary. I try to pick a wild or almost outlandish idea from time to time, because if I only try what I think will work, then I'm not doing my job.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#37

Post by dalvasorsali »

rented_mule wrote: post #11

Around 2015, I found myself managing back end and machine learning engineers (not researchers) at the same time. Many of the back end engineers wanted to do more ML. Some of them did well when given a chance, but others wanted to revert to back end within a few months. At the same time, one of the ML leaders wanted to step away from ML and only do back end work to support ML. As I studied these dynamics, something oc…

I saw the same thing and always wondered how you can manage it effectively.

I had a team of data engineers that wanted to do more data science, and 2 data scientists that both wanted to be data engineers(one of them argued that everyone wants to be DS and so it was too crowded, saying that they could make more money as a DE).

I also remember a specific instance where, one day, my friend ranted about how he needs to step away from pure front end and that it's a dead end career (he was quite good at it too!) and then the next day at lunch a colleague started complaining about how front end developers get all the credit and he's considering moving.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#38

Post by cold_harbor »

lostdog wrote: post #2

I have some coworkers that are similar in everything--education, work ethic, and intelligence--but some of the tick out ML ideas that work like clockwork, while others get hits rarely if ever. I cannot tell what makes it work for some and not others. Their ideas both sound equally good. Sometimes a coworker will be an ML star for a year or two, but then suddenly run out of steam. It's brutal to watch. I used to think…

[dead]

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#39

Post by tsumnia »

jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

> The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to train the self to become stronger, whereas actual Seon (Zen) in East Asia is about going with nature, letting go of the self, and allowing things to flow.

I think the Western sentiment, and why it is attached to strength, comes from a combination of the West's allure to Eastern martial arts and the reality of plateauing during training. Once you've been doing something for 2 years, you are no longer seeing the massive learning gains you saw as a true novice. However in that journey toward "mastery" (a term I hate) you have to keep a positive outlook that the practice takes time.

I now use this phrase from my instructor: "Practice makes permanent". There's no such thing as "perfect practice", but whatever you practice is what will stick.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#40

Post by supertroop »

jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

And if anyone actually read the book, Zen was about processing childhood trauma.
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