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Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

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Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#31

Post by gpderetta »

cfiggers wrote: post #30
ViscountPenguin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I love blindsight, but I really think it oversold the case against consciousness and for belligerent intelligent life.

I agree with you on that point. It seems to me that people who read Blindsight and get all existential are not thinking things through all the way. Blindsight poses the question, in essence, "What if consciousness is a competitive dis advantage, in which case non-consciousness would be Better™?" I can't make a conclusive case one way or the other w/r/t the premise—it may perhaps be the case that consciousness is a co…

Better here is purely in evolutionary terms, i.e. would a sub- or non non-conscious life form out-compete conscious life forms in its niche.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#32

Post by joshmarlow »

RupertEisenhart wrote: post #24

Watts is truly remarkable. I also recommend the Sunflowers series, just a brilliant conceit w.r.t humans in deep time plus a sound understanding of dealing with ASI. Wikipedia has it down as: The chronological order within the Sunflower universe is: "Hotshot", The Freeze-Frame Revolution, "Giants", "Hitchhiker", "Strategic Retreat", "Remora", "Outtake", "The Island". Just realizing I didnt see that list before I ther…

His Blindsight is one of my all time favorite novels (sequel is good to). His short story Malak - about a military drone given a prototype ethical program - is so good.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#33

Post by throwway120385 »

cfiggers wrote: post #30
ViscountPenguin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I love blindsight, but I really think it oversold the case against consciousness and for belligerent intelligent life.

I agree with you on that point. It seems to me that people who read Blindsight and get all existential are not thinking things through all the way. Blindsight poses the question, in essence, "What if consciousness is a competitive dis advantage, in which case non-consciousness would be Better™?" I can't make a conclusive case one way or the other w/r/t the premise—it may perhaps be the case that consciousness is a co…

How do you know that values and judgements have anything to do with being conscious? A machine can act like it has values and judgements and we wouldn't attribute any consciousness to it. Or if you've seen a dog tear up a garbage can every time it's owner leaves, I wonder if you're watching an expression of dog values. Is the dog conscious?

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#34

Post by lanstin »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #25
ViscountPenguin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I love blindsight, but I really think it oversold the case against consciousness and for belligerent intelligent life.

I have no conscious awareness of what I wrote, I just tried to be Peter Wattsy, haha (kidding! It's oversold, or beautiful artistic expression of something. Bleak, yes; Stark; Also beautiful. The thing it expresses is… a thing. We're not at all as conscious as… we think?, as we portray ourselves?, to others and/or ourselves? And it's magical to view people as… partially unconscious to a significant degree while also…

And knowing that another person sees you clearly and still loves you, that is magical. As well as useful since you can have discussions and make decisions based on the realities of your self without having to achieve some mythical self awareness.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#35

Post by dreamcompiler »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #26
cdrini wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite enjoyed Blindsight, but that was not my takeaway at all :P How do you see people differently after reading it?

Hard to pin into words! We're unconscious of how unconscious we are?, and it's good to… what's the term, suffer gladly and give gladly? To own one's unconsciousness and raise it, and expect and see others' unconscious going about major things in life - to see it coldly as well as warmly. I find this is more accurate and safer than assuming consciousness in everyone, and it also reveals so clearly people who do cast t…

I like this. Most people are doing the best they can while running on autopilot most of the time.

I think free will is possible but it requires a level of training and introspection and practice that most people find unpleasant, so most people revert to autopilot.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#36

Post by dreamcompiler »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #8
madrox wrote: post #6

No one has ever made me feel horror and despair like Peter Watts. His books stare directly into the abyss. I think it's what makes the hope you feel at the end seem earned. If you haven't read his work but you spend time thinking about HCI, you should.

I see people differently after reading Blindsight; The picture is much darker , concretely more accurate, with what light is there geared to all hell and so much brighter. I'm better for it and at a greater peace.

"Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2308s

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#37

Post by XorNot »

gpderetta wrote: post #23
XorNot wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a competition though just mutual incompatibility: aliens so alien that we can barely comprehend their motives and are implicitly regarded as hostile by our manner of existence. I'd say the case it was making has only become more relevant with the chatbot age.

> I'd say the case it was making has only become more relevant with the chatbot age. Exactly. The central thesis, consciousness not being necessary for intelligence, is very relevant today. Of course, the existential horror background in the book was also quite well done.

Which reminds, generative AI means we should be able to get the book version of Chernoff faces into grafana now...

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#38

Post by veidr »

throwway120385 wrote: post #33
cfiggers wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on that point. It seems to me that people who read Blindsight and get all existential are not thinking things through all the way. Blindsight poses the question, in essence, "What if consciousness is a competitive dis advantage, in which case non-consciousness would be Better™?" I can't make a conclusive case one way or the other w/r/t the premise—it may perhaps be the case that consciousness is a co…

How do you know that values and judgements have anything to do with being conscious? A machine can act like it has values and judgements and we wouldn't attribute any consciousness to it. Or if you've seen a dog tear up a garbage can every time it's owner leaves, I wonder if you're watching an expression of dog values. Is the dog conscious?

What? Of course... of course the dog is conscious.

Did you mean dogs don't have values and judgements? I suspect they do, and those might be much more different than dog consciousness vs human. And one judgement might be "human gone; i do wtf i WANT bro" or, you know, something vaguely like that.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#39

Post by pokstad »

RupertEisenhart wrote: post #24

Watts is truly remarkable. I also recommend the Sunflowers series, just a brilliant conceit w.r.t humans in deep time plus a sound understanding of dealing with ASI. Wikipedia has it down as: The chronological order within the Sunflower universe is: "Hotshot", The Freeze-Frame Revolution, "Giants", "Hitchhiker", "Strategic Retreat", "Remora", "Outtake", "The Island". Just realizing I didnt see that list before I ther…

ASI = Artificial Super Intelligence?

I read Freeze Frame Revolution and drew blank seeing that acronym.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#40

Post by arronax »

number6 wrote: post #4
condwanaland wrote: post #2

Have not read this series (yet), but Watt's Blindsight is an absolute masterclass in literary sci-fi

Starfish ... It's very good bit also very hard on the reader very devastating

What's notable is that the Rifters trilogy just progresses in intensity and in the overall gloom. Starfish is light reading compared to Behemoth, which is sitting for me on the last chapter, because I couldn't finish it.
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