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Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

algorithmichiring.github.io

31–40 of 93 posts

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#31
post #13

This is keeping me out of work at the moment. The usual flow is that I have a great HR interview, then I'm assigned an online intelligence (what dots should be in the next box) test and a personality test, and then the company wants nothing to do with me. They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related . (The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whit…

> The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whiteboard so I didn't get the job' seem wonderful in comparison now

> They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related

When I was in college about 10 years ago, I was dreaming a company would interview me on actual algorithms, but sadly I rarely had the occasion to do anything above basic coding.

If you want to see clearly what you can do to get hired, the following perspective helped me a lot. From experience, most hiring processes seem to be shaped less by technical signal and more by the interviewer's defensibility strategy in case of a bad hire. What I mean by that should be clearer from the list below:

- informal interview plus experience matching, hires based on how similar candidate prior jobs seem to be for current role - informal interview and vibe check with the team or personality test check if candidate is compliant if senior or charismatic if junior - take-home project with a nominal 1-hour time limit, but an implicit expectation that candidates spend days on it. Since the interviewer cannot verify how long anyone spent, they default to rewarding the most polished submission.

- take-home project with narrow stated requirements, followed by judgment against unstated "best practices" the company follows - CV farm, the company is collecting CVs and has no serious intent to hire - if the interviewer has no skin in the game (is not verified, performance doesn't matter, they're a consultant leaving next month anyway), anything could happen. This is the most dangerous kind of interview because almost anything can happen and it gives you the least actionable data.

- formal interview pipeline, usually found at large corporations or in finance; interviewer has a clearly scoped job and are expected to evaluate one part of the candidate against a rubric, not make a general judgment about overall hireability. Biases will still exist, but they are more constrained because the process uses multiple interviewers, trained evaluators, explicit scoring grids So, interview pipelines can be predictable. It is that you should identify what kind of process you are in as early as possible. If it is experience matching, make your background look obviously adjacent to the role. If it is a take-home, assume polish will count more than the stated time limit. If it is a vibe screen, technical skill may not be the primary variable. If it is a formal pipeline, prepare for the rubric. And if it is a CV farm or a low-accountability interview, do not over-update on the rejection.

In your specific case, I wouldn't overindex on on the intelligence or personality assignment. More probable the CV already got deproritised, but they also sent you the test automatically. The rejection may tell you less about your ability than about the kind of pipeline you were in.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#32
post #30

Waaaait why is it not in the incentives of companies hiring to automatically fix this? They instantly get better candidates for cheaper wages.

Step one: Decision makers who can change these processes need to be aware of this problem. Many companies fail this simple task. Step two: These decision makers must be held accountable for the success of the process. Many companies fail this simple task. Step three: These decision makers must be willing to admit that they made a mistake, and risk loss of prestige and political capital. Guess how likely that is. And…

True I agree and I think there must be some head of recruiting who is in the details who should be kinda held responsible for this.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#33
post #13

This is keeping me out of work at the moment. The usual flow is that I have a great HR interview, then I'm assigned an online intelligence (what dots should be in the next box) test and a personality test, and then the company wants nothing to do with me. They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related . (The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whit…

I don't have a dog in the race, also I'm not based in the US, but aren't intelligence tests for hiring illegal in the US?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#34
post #14
post #13

This is keeping me out of work at the moment. The usual flow is that I have a great HR interview, then I'm assigned an online intelligence (what dots should be in the next box) test and a personality test, and then the company wants nothing to do with me. They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related . (The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whit…

I am miserably bad at soft-skills interviews and never get past this round. Been over a year since I've had somebody actually try to assess my technical competency in any real capacity. I'm also getting maybe 1 INITIAL interview every 3 months right now because of this AI screening stuff and I just haven't felt like re-writing my resume to game them.

IMO, soft-skills interviews more a test of your storytelling abilities than anything else. At Google, people often used to joke about candidates who cannot even pass the Googleyness interview, which is supposed to be the easiest of all Google interviews.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#35
post #13

This is keeping me out of work at the moment. The usual flow is that I have a great HR interview, then I'm assigned an online intelligence (what dots should be in the next box) test and a personality test, and then the company wants nothing to do with me. They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related . (The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whit…

Have a computer take your personality test is dystopian

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#37
post #13

This is keeping me out of work at the moment. The usual flow is that I have a great HR interview, then I'm assigned an online intelligence (what dots should be in the next box) test and a personality test, and then the company wants nothing to do with me. They manage to screen me out before I have the opportunity to talk about anything computing related . (The old horror-stories of 'I couldn't reverse a BST on a whit…

I don't have a dog in the race, also I'm not based in the US, but aren't intelligence tests for hiring illegal in the US? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co .

There are dozens - dozens! - of us outside the US.

I drew the opposite conclusion from your link: (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits employment tests that are not a 'reasonable measure of job performance'). All an employer would need to say is "We've found that people who can't dots-in-box are bad at cody"

I just dug up the link (https://www.alvalabs.io/hiring-system/assessments/logic-test) to take another look, and sure enough, there's giant text saying "A strong predictor of job performance." Consider HR's arses covered!

They have the nerve to label it is a "logic" test. I bet I'd be the only one on their staff able to write out simple natural deduction proofs.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#38
post #22

This clearly falls under the definition of automated individual decision-making per Article 22 of the GDPR and would be blatantly illegal if it were done in the EU. The GDPR is explicitly designed to outlaw this kind of algorithmic profiling and exclusion in hiring. https://gdpr-info.eu/art-22-gdpr/ https://www.bloomberglaw.com/external/document/X4BBTPFO00000...

[deleted]

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#39
post #30

Waaaait why is it not in the incentives of companies hiring to automatically fix this? They instantly get better candidates for cheaper wages.

Step one: Decision makers who can change these processes need to be aware of this problem. Many companies fail this simple task. Step two: These decision makers must be held accountable for the success of the process. Many companies fail this simple task. Step three: These decision makers must be willing to admit that they made a mistake, and risk loss of prestige and political capital. Guess how likely that is. And…

There are two problems here - the volume of application spam ( which creates the need for automated filtering in the first place, and is now probably AI aided ), and the fact that there isn't a single decision maker.

You have HR which decides to outsource filtering, and then the outsourced company who decides how it's done.

The line managers actually trying to recruit are no where near this decision - indeed they don't share a common manager till you get to the CEO - who is too busy to care about this sort of stuff.

In my experience the only way to fix this is to tell HR that you want the unfiltered CV list and do it yourself. The problem with that is if you work at a large well known company you'll get 100's if not 1000's of applicants for any job you advertise and most applicants don't appear to have even read the job description. So you are committing to a very large amount of work.

Re: Algorithmic Monocultures in Hiring

#40

Waaaait why is it not in the incentives of companies hiring to automatically fix this? They instantly get better candidates for cheaper wages.

its an information and principal agent problem.

We don't know how to measure worker productivity -> its hard to even say what a good hire is.

We don't have good standardisation around whatever measurements we do take -> hard to say anything about hiring at all.

People are more interested in their own prestige than hiring the best option for the company -> too many candidates get hired in the wrong places.

many of these problems do seem solvable given risk taking and statistics. However, culturally hiring managers aren't inclined to do either.

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