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Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu

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Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#31

Post by RandomLensman »

cryo32 wrote: post #28
RandomLensman wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU had own large corporate hyperscalers that would be an issue there for the EU?

Yes it would still. Which is why I think the process is misguided. I mean look at Hungary which was a near miss. It needs to be resilient to state failure as well. This means that the entire idea of a corporate EU spanning hyperscaler should never exist.

State failure is something the Europeans have experience in dealing with.

That aside: how much would that cost in lost economies of scale?

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#32

Post by RandomLensman »

s_dev wrote: post #30
RandomLensman wrote: post #3

Where is the investment coming from (the capital markets union/savings and investment union isn't there so far)? How to make building infrastructure faster? Could some other regulation be removed to aid AI and tech use? Not convinced adding regulation alone will solve things in European tech.

Trump's actions are pushing Europeans towards federalisation as a broader trend. More specifically things like this are happening quietly in the background: https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/eu-inc-maki... This mandates a few things: Countries must do certain things in English to ensure a common language. Simple liquidation for bankruptcies, register once and operate across the EU. Places like Germany…

There is stuff happening but I think most of it is addressing side issues (and cannot address some cores outside of an actual USofE, if then).

For example, how would that overcome local resistance to new infrastructure or reduce the huge amount of (local) regulations in a significant way?

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#33

Post by AndrewDucker »

RandomLensman wrote: post #16
Angostura wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yes - if your biggest external source of energy declares war, and your hitherto trusted defence partner goes rogue - it's going to have a chilling effect and the measures needed to address that will hit both the economy and the populous

Why would measures aiming to create more energy supply necessarily hit the economy and the populous?

Losing a chunk of your energy supply, while simultaneously having to build a bunch of new energy supply, will hit the economy.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#34

Post by RandomLensman »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #33
RandomLensman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would measures aiming to create more energy supply necessarily hit the economy and the populous?

Losing a chunk of your energy supply, while simultaneously having to build a bunch of new energy supply, will hit the economy.

Yes, losing hurts, but building new supply would necessarily hurt why (instead of being accretive)?

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#35

Post by s_dev »

RandomLensman wrote: post #32
s_dev wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's actions are pushing Europeans towards federalisation as a broader trend. More specifically things like this are happening quietly in the background: https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/eu-inc-maki... This mandates a few things: Countries must do certain things in English to ensure a common language. Simple liquidation for bankruptcies, register once and operate across the EU. Places like Germany…

There is stuff happening but I think most of it is addressing side issues (and cannot address some cores outside of an actual USofE, if then). For example, how would that overcome local resistance to new infrastructure or reduce the huge amount of (local) regulations in a significant way?

The US has these issues as well as still has a strong tech sector, you also have to keep in mind a successful outcome for the EU won't be what the US has right now either. You get charts like this floating around the internet: https://postimg.cc/Yh8TPs8g

Nearly always presented as a 'dick swinging' look how great we are chart in a EU vs US vs China stand off. However it reveals flaws in the US as well. A successful tech sector in the EU will be lots of small bubbles where the combined area is somewhat approximates what is in the US and China.

A handful of giants is not desired here in the EU, you can see the issues this presents in the US as well, chiefly: it's distorting the political system to becoming like Russia. Oligarchy.

That's not even getting in to the chart is deeply flawed but that's not the point I'm making.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#36

Post by AndrewDucker »

RandomLensman wrote: post #34
AndrewDucker wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing a chunk of your energy supply, while simultaneously having to build a bunch of new energy supply, will hit the economy.

Yes, losing hurts, but building new supply would necessarily hurt why (instead of being accretive)?

Because it will cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere.

If you have 300 froblets per month being shipped to you, and suddenly you have only 200 froblets arriving and you have to spend £5 billion building a froblet factory, then you're both going to be short on froblets and high on expenses at least until the factory is built.

And yes, in the long run you'll have built the factory, will be getting a safer supply of froblets, and everything will be sunshine and roses, but while you're building it all that's an extra expense that you have to find the money for.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#37

Post by RandomLensman »

s_dev wrote: post #35
RandomLensman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is stuff happening but I think most of it is addressing side issues (and cannot address some cores outside of an actual USofE, if then). For example, how would that overcome local resistance to new infrastructure or reduce the huge amount of (local) regulations in a significant way?

The US has these issues as well as still has a strong tech sector, you also have to keep in mind a successful outcome for the EU won't be what the US has right now either. You get charts like this floating around the internet: https://postimg.cc/Yh8TPs8g Nearly always presented as a 'dick swinging' look how great we are chart in a EU vs US vs China stand off. However it reveals flaws in the US as well. A successful t…

Yes, certain issues are found in the US, too, but doesn't mean they shouldn't perhaps be addressed.

Some things also might need scale at least in aggregate and either tech leads to some sort of Coasian singularity or having a lot of small things comes with additional transaction costs.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#38

Post by kaon_2 »

DeathArrow wrote: post #12

Europe started going backwards from some time. Energy is becoming more expensive, raw materials are becoming more expensive, industry is thickening, jobs are closed, education is not ok, most important tech developments are happening elsewhere, we don't have a thriving startup environment, most large tech companies are established elsewhere. Maybe we will wake up at some point and do something. Discourses won't put f…

Poland is doing fine. Southern Europe is doing very well. Greece is growing superfast. Switzerland is still one the richest and successful countries in the world. Denmark is amazing.

Germany and the UK are the sick men of Europe. France is going brankrupt. Careful with confusing the 19th century superpowers with the whole of Europe. Yes cost of living has increased by which i mean real wages have stalled in many places, but this is worldwide and mostly due to external causes such as rocketing gas and oil prices. If we succeed in making lasting peace with Russia and getting access again to their natural resources, a new golden age may well commence.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#39

Post by RandomLensman »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #36
RandomLensman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, losing hurts, but building new supply would necessarily hurt why (instead of being accretive)?

Because it will cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. If you have 300 froblets per month being shipped to you, and suddenly you have only 200 froblets arriving and you have to spend £5 billion building a froblet factory, then you're both going to be short on froblets and high on expenses at least until the factory is built. And yes, in the long run you'll have built the factory, will be getting a saf…

Investment costs money but why would investments hurt? What hurts is the loss of supply.

The money is spent on something and comes (hopefully) with a positive RoI and NPV. And you could borrow to build to reduce own capital outlay.

I don't think there was a lot of new energy production was put into place, though.

Re: Communication on European Tech Sovereignty, and an EU Open-Source Strategy

#40

Post by fidotron »

whateverboat wrote: post #19
cryo32 wrote: post #5

I look forward to the day we have a sovereign CPU, RAM, storage, ancillary ICs, production line, supply chain, software stack and associated infra than I can walk into a shop and buy and use myself. I don't think it'll ever happen though. These initiatives are mostly fluff. Throw everything into AI because it's the current fad but not even look at stuff that runs everything RIGHT NOW. If anything was to happen war-wi…

We have now sovereign CPUs but we are struggling to get HPC ones. They will be there soon though in 5-6 years. RAM is already possible for Europe to manufacture if they can get the fab. Supply chain remains a question mark for the raw materials. Software stack is almost there. In effect, I would say we are around 60% there. The most important thing actually missing is Fabs. Everything else I see a straightforward pat…

HPC will always be years away.

There is a big structural problem in Europe with these sort of initiatives: people receive grants for attacking identified problems; if you actually solve the problem then you have to find a new problem for your next grant, so it's best to not actually solve the problem but claim your next proposal will.

Combine that by not actually wanting to reward people properly when problems are solved and you have the root of why eurotech has totally stagnated.

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