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Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

leidendeclaration.ai

31–40 of 92 posts

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#31
post #11
post #3

It's worth remembering Thurston's essay on mathoverflow ( https://mathoverflow.net/questions/43690/whats-a-mathematici... ): "The product of mathematics is clarity and understanding. Not theorems, by themselves. Is there, for example any real reason that even such famous results as Fermat's Last Theorem, or the Poincaré conjecture, really matter? Their real importance is not in their specific statements, but their ro…

That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math? I suggest if one looks at the history of funding for mathematics and science, the product of these efforts is not understanding, but rather power. Funding went way up after WW2 when the war demonstrated that power flows from them. Math not only contributed to the scientific weapons of the way, but w…

> That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math?

Yes, and your examples are exactly examples of what the GP quote is talking about.

Of course people paying money want applications, which includes "power" in your kind of reductive framing (applications to war being only one of many types of applications, or we could redefine any gradient provided by expanded understanding as "power", in which case the choice of word just seems melodramatic).

What we've also learned over the centuries, a lot more clearly in the last few, is that seemingly pointless or applicationless understanding can very quickly become useful. This is why it's clearly worth still funding pure math.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#32
post #11
post #3

It's worth remembering Thurston's essay on mathoverflow ( https://mathoverflow.net/questions/43690/whats-a-mathematici... ): "The product of mathematics is clarity and understanding. Not theorems, by themselves. Is there, for example any real reason that even such famous results as Fermat's Last Theorem, or the Poincaré conjecture, really matter? Their real importance is not in their specific statements, but their ro…

That's the product of math from the point of view of mathematicians. But is it the point of view of those funding math? I suggest if one looks at the history of funding for mathematics and science, the product of these efforts is not understanding, but rather power. Funding went way up after WW2 when the war demonstrated that power flows from them. Math not only contributed to the scientific weapons of the way, but w…

Power depends on understanding - Seeing a larger scale view of what is happening as opposed to an arbitrary sequence of manipulations.

The foundations of the WW2 technologies you cite were dependent on previous theoretical efforts (ex:relativity) to develop a good understanding.

Without understanding, you get brittle demos which fail as the environment or problem description changes.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#33
post #28

Most of the arguments here feel like gate keeping and resistance to change. I didn't see any arguments that were directly about advancing the state of knowledge of math. “Current automated techniques can produce plausible but unreliable (or even incorrect) arguments which are difficult to distinguish from correct mathematical proofs.” That seems like a problem for mathematics with or without AI. Isn’t this a problem…

Can't all proofs be eventually broken down into their fundamental pieces and then it's clear as day if it's right or wrong? Seems like a proof would be the best place to determine if an AI is right or not because the output is either right or wrong, there's no subjectivity and the, now common, excuse "well a human would have done the same" won't hold up.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#34

1. first they ignore you 2. then they laugh at you 3. then they fight you 4. then you win

Who exactly is the implied underdog "you" that we so desperately want to win here-- do you mean those poor struggling $xx billion companies or current US government apparently beholden to them?

Let's not sell them short, they're closer to $xxxx billion.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#35
> Technologies that draw extensively on the published mathematical commons undermine the traditional system of attribution.

This just feels like something that has always been true. Defending attribution in this way feels more like a panicked gatekeeping rather than something valuable and principled. I’m a bit disappointed to see people like Terence Tao endorse this.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#36

Is there a connection to Leiden, NL?

These type of questions are the reason why LLMs will take your job :-)

Questions are in the spirit of community. It isn't listed on the about page. If you rely on LLMs for everything you will never interact with people.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#37
post #28

Most of the arguments here feel like gate keeping and resistance to change. I didn't see any arguments that were directly about advancing the state of knowledge of math. “Current automated techniques can produce plausible but unreliable (or even incorrect) arguments which are difficult to distinguish from correct mathematical proofs.” That seems like a problem for mathematics with or without AI. Isn’t this a problem…

It is, but it is somewhat worse for machine-generated proofs, especially when the proof is very long and was done by brute force (eg the 4 colour map theorem[1] is the famous example), or depends on a lot of niche results in disparate areas (which LLMs are wont to sometimes do).

Even when the proof is produced by the llm in a formal system like Lean4 it may not be “honest”[2] and it can be hard to tell if the proof is very long and complex and especially if it includes highly specialized results from lots of different areas of maths. Llms can (and do) do this just fine, but for a human proof that would require a team each of which was specialized in a particular area. Those people are more likely to be able to cross-check each other.

[1] https://pubs.ams.org/ebooks/conm/098/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

[2] An “honest” proof may contain bugs or errors but it does not constitute a deliberate attack on the proof system or the math libraries it uses. Systems like Lean aim to not incorrectly validate an honest proof with mistakes but don’t guarantee anything in the case of a proof being dishonest. This is the sense used here https://lean-lang.org/doc/reference/latest/ValidatingProofs/ .

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#38
post #28

Most of the arguments here feel like gate keeping and resistance to change. I didn't see any arguments that were directly about advancing the state of knowledge of math. “Current automated techniques can produce plausible but unreliable (or even incorrect) arguments which are difficult to distinguish from correct mathematical proofs.” That seems like a problem for mathematics with or without AI. Isn’t this a problem…

Your list is cherry picked from the list of "potential threats" to the values of the mathematical research community identified by this document. They aren't criticisms or absolute statements, they're literally a list of potential new problems for the future of mathematical research, and they all seem reasonable to me, if not all at the same levels of magnitude or plausibility.

Notably you don't seem to be looking at either the list of identified values or their recommendations to researchers in their use of LLMs, which would seem much more important to engage with in any non-shallow dismissal of the document as "feel[ing] like gate keeping and resistance to change".

It's also kind of a bad look (and actively harmful for discourse) for people working on AI to be so dismissive of fields actively engaging with how their field is changing due to AI. I haven't seen any other field engaging this actively with its possible futures, have you? Usually we seem to only get some extreme of over-hyped utopia, doomerism, or dismissal of everything as slop.

Re: Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics

#40
post #33
post #28

Most of the arguments here feel like gate keeping and resistance to change. I didn't see any arguments that were directly about advancing the state of knowledge of math. “Current automated techniques can produce plausible but unreliable (or even incorrect) arguments which are difficult to distinguish from correct mathematical proofs.” That seems like a problem for mathematics with or without AI. Isn’t this a problem…

Can't all proofs be eventually broken down into their fundamental pieces and then it's clear as day if it's right or wrong? Seems like a proof would be the best place to determine if an AI is right or not because the output is either right or wrong, there's no subjectivity and the, now common, excuse "well a human would have done the same" won't hold up.

   > Can't all proofs be eventually broken down into their fundamental pieces and then it's clear as day if it's right or wrong?
You’d think so, but not really. There are mathematical structures which are unimaginably huge but have little if any reducible structure. For example, in algebra, one of the most basic structures is a Group. When trying to understand a group, one of the most important tools is to break a group into chunks using what’s called a “normal subgroup”. However it turns out that there are some absolutely enormous groups that are “simple” (ie have no normal subgroups). So, there is a set of 26 of these known as the “sporadic simple groups” that just don’t fit any kind of pattern. Proving results about these has proved very difficult because they can’t be broken down (they have no normal subgroups) and by definition just don’t fit any kind of other pattern. One of these, the “monster” group has approximately 8x10^53 members. So you have a set that is unimaginably massive and has very little internal structure as it is “simple” and so can’t be broken down further.

The proof that there are 26 of these sporadic simple groups is part of the theorem known as the classification of finite simple groups, sometimes known as the “Enormous Theorem”.[1] It took over 100 mathematicians nearly 50 years and resulted in hundreds of papers. Even with that many mathematicians involved, there were still errors and revisions needed to the original proof. Some of the original authors are gradually publishing a somewhat simplified version of the proof but it’s still a massive effort.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_finite_simpl...

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