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4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

archaeologymag.com

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Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#31

Post by pm90 »

> The study also raises broader questions about how early cities functioned. Archaeologists often link urban growth with centralized political power and rising social divisions. Mohenjo-daro points toward another model, one where collective governance and public investment shaped the city’s long-term stability.

Fascinating. I hope that discoveries like this increase the interest of the public in investing in historical research... so much of our theory of the world is shaped by a narrow focus on the history of areas that were easier (relatively) to study.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#32

Post by readthenotes1 »

p1necone wrote: post #26
pram wrote: post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

I don't think use of consistent weights and measures implies someone being in charge of those weights and measures. I also don't think someone being in charge of weights and measures implies that same person/group being in charge of anything else. The latter feels fairly obvious, for the former I imagine some generally agreed upon method for creating new weights and measures given some existing ones for calibration p…

Ah, a town with no greed. Everyone voluntarily did the right thing.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#33

Post by drucat »

newaccountman2 wrote: post #21
drucat wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So any society going well might go bad 4, 000 years and several conquests later? What is your point lol

Unlike other conquests, they have remained the same people. It wasn't linked to large scale migration or displacement.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#34

Post by pram »

komali2 wrote: post #22
pram wrote: post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

> Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol I disagree. You seem to imply that the standa…

I'm saying some kind of institution was in charge of the manufacture and certification. Much like the weights produced by Sumer, which was uncontroversially a "state"

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#35

Post by pram »

p1necone wrote: post #26
pram wrote: post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

I don't think use of consistent weights and measures implies someone being in charge of those weights and measures. I also don't think someone being in charge of weights and measures implies that same person/group being in charge of anything else. The latter feels fairly obvious, for the former I imagine some generally agreed upon method for creating new weights and measures given some existing ones for calibration p…

Not in this case, the "Indus" weights were notably used in the Dilmun trade even by Sumerian buyers.

The Meluhha->Dilmun trade weights were in fact found across Mesopotamia in general. They've been measured to be extremely accurate. The Meluhhan expat communities in Sumer were probably part of this infrastructure, if I were to guess.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#36

Post by newaccountman2 »

drucat wrote: post #33
newaccountman2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So any society going well might go bad 4, 000 years and several conquests later? What is your point lol

Unlike other conquests, they have remained the same people. It wasn't linked to large scale migration or displacement.

So?

Four thousand years and a bunch of history happened, why should anyone be surprised that things are different?

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#37

Post by jojobas »

dwa3592 wrote: post #6

It's a pleasant finding but not surprising. In all the excavations done over time in indus valley, they never found any weapons or any signs of war. I have this book with pretty cool illustrations if anyone wants a light read on this topic - https://www.amazon.com/dp/014345532X?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_... I am not related to the author in anyway. i heard about this book on a podcast and bought it.

Even Australian Aboriginals had weapons of war. Some of the seals spoken about in the article depict swords and shields. There is no way anything of value didn't have to be defended by force.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#38

Post by pram »

bilbo0s wrote: post #25
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A: Weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. B: Someone was obviously "in charge" lol B can imply A, but A does not imply B.

I did some work for Halliburton in a past life. Most of the people selling LNG for instance, do not have any control over the definition of a "cubic meter". Even so, none of them cheat, because the US for example, very much does have its own definition of a cubic meter and it isn't going to pay you a penny more, nor a penny less, than what that cubic meter is worth. All that to say, you could probably try to cheat th…

The trade actually involved different measurements. The shekel (silver, commodity-money) was weighed by the Sumerian purchaser and then given to the trader in Dilmun (he would literally have a bag full of weights and silver)

The Meluhha commodities themselves were measured seemingly with the Meluhhan weights. So the units went from Indus -> Dilmun in Indus quantities, and were purchased and verified that way. The Sumerian guy was buying an "Indus quantity" and paying in a weight "Sumerian silver." So there wasn't a disconnection between Dilmun and Mohenjo-daro like you're implying.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#39

Post by vintermann »

pram wrote: post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

From what I remember nothing Graeber wrote suggests there wasn't a government. On the contrary, he wrote a lot of the temple being in charge of distribution.

Maybe there was a high priest in charge of weights and measures and punishing people who cheated with them, who knows - but we do know that for a very long time, that power if so wasn't leveraged into better living quarters, or better access to luxury goods that we know of. That's pretty remarkable.

So you can basically believe one of two things, or maybe some combination: that power was fairly evenly distributed, OR, those with power didn't appreciably privilege themselves. I find the latter harder to believe than the former.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#40

Post by soco »

mcmoor wrote: post #27
komali2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol I disagree. You seem to imply that the standa…

It's exactly the opposite. With languages/standards, both parties has incentives to have mutual understanding so they don't need anyone else to enforce symbol equality. But with these weights, or money in general, there's huge incentive to deceive each other, so someone has to enforce the equality. That someone can be the parties themselves, but if one party lack the ability, it necessitated the creation of third-par…

Then there's this theory that legalese was created to enforce the need for legalese, to justify it and feed it forward.
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