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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#31

Post by Mashimo »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #24

Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it. I prefer FW for freedom reasons, that’s worth a few hundred as well as the ram. Would also wait for the new intel chipset that is more efficient however. Finally I think the FW 12 is weirdly positioned, as the 13 is already thin and light. For a tablet, I recommend…

> Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it.

Just last weekend I bought 8gb ram thinkpad t14 for an elderly relative. 240 EUR.

It replaces his thinkpad x220 where the fan and ssd slowly dies.

I doubt it becomes an issue, and if it does then I can upgrade it later.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#32

Post by racl101 »

Never understood the people who keep saying Macbooks are expensive. They make it sound like unreasonably expensive. Sure maybe before the Intel Macs in 2006. But for the last 20 years they've been not the cheapest but not the most expensive either.

And when you factor all the time you waste on Windows, especially at the time Windows Vista, which had insane memory requirements, and compared them to Mac Os (X at the time) which ran pretty good on the cheapest models, and factored in the fact that OS upgrades were free, it ended up being on par if not better proposition. (Assuming you're not trying to run some exclusively Windows software on it or gaming).

And with the MacBook Neo. Forget it about it. It's almost, just almost a foregone conclusion for an entry machine that it is a much better proposition.

Does Apple have a lot of overpriced products. Yes, yes they do. But they it also doesn't mean you had to buy it either.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#33

Post by GeekyBear »

artooro wrote: post #12

I understand Jeff's argument, but he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components. So if that is not a valued feature in this scenario, sure it's hard to justify.

> he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components

He does explicitly make that point.

> The biggest win is the modular ports.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#34

Post by ndiddy »

artooro wrote: post #12

I understand Jeff's argument, but he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components. So if that is not a valued feature in this scenario, sure it's hard to justify.

I think what makes the perspective in the article interesting is that buying individual components a la carte isn't a good value in today's market. Sure you can upgrade the RAM and SSD in the Framework, but 16 GB of laptop DDR5 is $200 and a 1 TB 2230 SSD is another $200. The question becomes, is it worth it to spend 40% more for a laptop with 40% less performance (as well as worse build quality, a worse screen, worse speakers, worse battery life, and running hotter) so you can have the potential to spend half the price of the laptop to upgrade it in the future?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#35

Post by mattbillenstein »

antonf wrote: post #30

The problem with Apple laptop is few years into the future - it's what will happen when Apple drop support for this hardware in OS X. Even if Asahi Linux or similar will be in a good enough state, you will still have to go through pain of adjusting to new system, moving data, figuring out how to access your iCloud/time machine/etc... Unfortunately for Framework, people who think this way make poor customers - can't j…

I tried using refurb'd Thinkpads as my travel machine for a long time - they're very brittle hard to fix laptops - kinda like Macbooks.

The Framework on the other hand is so easy to work on and get parts for - I know this isn't probably a main selling point for most users, but if you need this, Framework is like the only game in town.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#36

Post by taude »

I really want a Framework 12, but not in current incarnation. Hoping for an upgrade with aluminum body. I don't mind the pricepoint. But didn't want a plastic notebook at this point. Want a great couch computer for surfing the net, ssh'ing to machines, writing, etc....

What I surprisingly really miss, is my macbook air 11".

But probably won't be surprised if I end up with a Framework 13 Pro once they're caught up on delivery. I'm really hoping they have an announced 12 revision by then, though.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#37

Post by slopinthebag »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #24

Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it. I prefer FW for freedom reasons, that’s worth a few hundred as well as the ram. Would also wait for the new intel chipset that is more efficient however. Finally I think the FW 12 is weirdly positioned, as the 13 is already thin and light. For a tablet, I recommend…

MacBooks don't need as much ram - I have an m1 air with 8gb of ram and it's perfectly serviceable, I can even run IntelliJ on it...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#38

Post by devmor »

racl101 wrote: post #32

Never understood the people who keep saying Macbooks are expensive. They make it sound like unreasonably expensive. Sure maybe before the Intel Macs in 2006. But for the last 20 years they've been not the cheapest but not the most expensive either. And when you factor all the time you waste on Windows, especially at the time Windows Vista, which had insane memory requirements, and compared them to Mac Os (X at the ti…

MacBooks are only expensive when you need performance upgrades, the base models are really not that bad for what you get.

But if you want to add a little more to your spec sheet, you might as well go somewhere else.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#39

Post by cassianoleal »

taude wrote: post #36

I really want a Framework 12, but not in current incarnation. Hoping for an upgrade with aluminum body. I don't mind the pricepoint. But didn't want a plastic notebook at this point. Want a great couch computer for surfing the net, ssh'ing to machines, writing, etc.... What I surprisingly really miss, is my macbook air 11". But probably won't be surprised if I end up with a Framework 13 Pro once they're caught up on…

I had a MacBook Air 11" back in the day. 2nd or 3rd generation, I can't remember. The one that didn't stutter on YouTube. Amazing machine! I had always wished the screen was slightly bigger though. The insanely large bezel was a waste of space.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#40

Post by horsawlarway »

noelsusman wrote: post #8
aftbit wrote: post #6

If you're ideologically willing to use a Mac, you're really not the market that the Framework is targeting. Apple has always had some of the best hardware. Where they really struggle is in respecting user choice and allowing power users to alter their systems. The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. They're fundamentally intended for different people. If your choice of platform is driven by hardware instead…

I think Framework would disagree that their target market consists solely of people ideologically opposed to owning Apple hardware.

They might disagree with that framing, but it does seem to be the majority of folks I see who are interested in them.

And I'm not saying that as a negative - my Framework 13 is my favorite laptop by a fairly wide margin, but it's clearly not at the hardware level of my work issued mac.

Apple produces fantastic hardware. It's a shame I can't stand them as a company, and that they cripple that hardware with their OS.

Prior to framework, I'd be buying something along the lines of a Dell XPS (developer edition for linux compatibility) because a mac is just a non-starter for me. But a mac hands-down the best hardware you can get for a personal laptop right now. Turns out that's not the main driver of what laptop I want.

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