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Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

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Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#31

Post by nisegami »

chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

There's so much variety in hybrids that's hard to discuss as a single category.

I think the most important question is whether the system requires a regular automatic/manual transmission or forgoes one entirely. The Toyota planetary gear system forgoes one, as does the modern Honda and Nissan approaches. Not having a transmission in the traditional sense saves so much complexity that the overall system is net simpler imo even with the additional complexity from having a motor and engine.

Then there are systems that have a full automatic drivetrain and some extra clutches to couple to a motor-generator. And there's even systems with an electronically controlled manual transmission instead. Those systems are going to be incredibly complex and fragile.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#32

Post by roelschroeven »

justin66 wrote: post #16
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #9

I have a conventional (not plug-in) hybrid Toyota Corolla as otherwise I'd have to pay loads to drive it in the city. It does get crazy mileage and drives well so I can't complain. They are more expensive than standard cars though and you can't leave it in neutral which is a problem in some car washes.

I don't get it. I put my Toyota hybrid in neutral while going through a car wash all the time. I just googled this. I had no idea this was a thing some people worry about. I guess it's a problem if the hybrid battery runs out while the car is in neutral, but there's a meter right there to tell you how much charge it's got if you're really worried about it.

What surprised me in the video is that Alec was telling how his engine can charge his battery while in the car wash. I had a 2016 Auris which I had to put it in neutral in the car wash, and in neutral the engine couldn't charge the battery. That was never a problem, I never had an empty battery in the car wash or even came close to it, but it does seem different from Alec's experience (unless I misunderstood).

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#33

Post by paulnpace »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #12

The title doesn't match the point of the video. What he is trying to show is the world would be a better place if we could establish that hybrids come in two flavors: Toyota and non-Toyota. There's really no better hybrid design. Unfortunately that means they aren't scrapped after decades, and Mongolia has become a dumping ground for them.[1] So it still is the best hybrid drivetrain in the world, but much like plast…

I'm still not sure about the shoehorning of Mongolia into the discussion, but what these sorts of comments often fail to discuss is what the supply chain into new things looks like, because that can be equally destructive to the environment.

Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap.

Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain.

Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#34

Post by [deleted] »

bee_rider wrote: post #30
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

[deleted]

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#35

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

bee_rider wrote: post #30
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

one of the primary arguments of the video is that ecvt is a strictly superior solution. (and that diesel electric exists for massive torque conversion in trains, but loses efficiency)

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#36

Post by LanceH »

Molitor5901 wrote: post #24

My experience with hybrids have been.... mostly positive, good mileage, Toyota's drive very well, but.. I would not buy one for one pedantic, silly reason: I hate the government mandated banshee howling sound. Many ICE vehicles are just as quiet as an EV without the fake noise, and while I am not discounting that quiet vehicles can pose a hazard to pedestrians, the howling is just.. utterly obnoxious.

I had a good experience with my prius for quite a while.

I wouldn't buy one with the noise either. I was annoyed daily that there was a loud beep during backup, which is the first thing I had to do every time I got in the car -- that beeping was inside the cabin.

Mine was apparently before that. I bought it strictly for the commute as I was really tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. People talk about having having power from low rpm's like we're drag racing, but the real win is in stop and go. Mileage also great in that situation.

But once the car hit 100k miles, it just became a nightmare with maintenance. Everything was special and somehow tied together.

More of a Toyota issue, but they wouldn't recall the headlights ceasing to work -- each one had to be replaced with their computer control something for $700. Who needs headlights? Also the rubber pad to open the trunk melted -- this happened to quite a few Prius owners in a certain time frame -- toyota insisted we all spilled something that melts rubber on a pad that faces downward.

I would be open to a hybrid, but I just bought a Honda Civic instead.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#37

Post by moron4hire »

lowdownbutter wrote: post #19

If nobody understands them, why would I watch this video - Either he also doesn't understand them, therefore why would I watch? Or he does understand them, in which case the title is incorrect, therefore why would I watch?

https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=981&si=VNWJu0XaNdu-gj9Y

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#38

Post by bluGill »

bee_rider wrote: post #30
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

Called a series hybrid, and it has been done. However gears are more efficient than a generator -> motor, and charging a battery adds even more losses. Thus if the engine is running anyway you are better off just mechanically connecting it to the wheels.

Trains don't do the above in large parts because the gears needed either wouldn't fit in the allowed space. (we may not be able to make them large enough either - that problem is solvable but may not be worth it)

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#39

Post by xattt »

bee_rider wrote: post #30
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

These are range extenders, and were used with the Fisker Karma, BMW i3 (as an option) and, most recently, the Mazda CX-30 with a Wankel engine.

The latter was sold in the UK/EU and was on the market for two years only.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#40

Post by caminanteblanco »

chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

Well for quite a while, this has been a Toyota specific design, per their patents, but they ceded all royalties to those a few years ago [0], and to me, this seems like such a fundementally elegant design.

[0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html

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