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Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

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Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#31

Post by embedding-shape »

Arodex wrote: post #11

>Editor's note: Readers often ask us for follow-ups on memorable stories. What has happened to this story over the years? This article was originally published in 2019 but it has been re-edited and updated with new information current as of April 7, 2025. Enjoy! Now that is something that should be done more often - especially in science journalism, but not only. We cruelly lack long-term vision - not only forward bu…

The typical publishing methods kind of favors that approach of publishing new articles instead of updating existing ones though, for better or worse.

Maybe science journalism should just adopt a wiki-model instead, where there is one article per "subject" then any new (confirmed?) information/data goes into that, and interested people can subscribe to updates there instead.

Wikis generally have much better long-term maintenance given the right individuals running it, compared to a "publication journal" where things tend to get out of date eventually, with no way of actually seeing when old articles get updated.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#32

Post by freehorse »

geremiiah wrote: post #23
leikarnes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing that the kids now have less stomachpain, constipation, and are feeling less bloated/nauseous. Thus have less voilent reactions

That's what I'm saying. It's a misdiagnosis. Whether or not they have tantrums should not be a factor in whether or not they are high-functioning or low-functioning.

It does not have to be misdiagnosis. If kid has both autism and gut issues, the gut issues could make the autistic symptoms worse, by causing distress to the kid, which could make the interactions with caregivers harder for both in a quite formative period. Treating the gut issues could help this way without gut being directly related to autism and without it being a misdiagnosis. It is telling that they report quite high (0.7) correlations between improvement in gut and autistic symptoms.

However they say they also have an adult trial running that seems to show similar effects, so there might be something more into it.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#33

Post by rafram »

leikarnes wrote: post #15
geremiiah wrote: post #14

What's more plausible? Did they cure low functioning autism in two years? Or did they simpily miscategorize the kids and the kids grew out of their diagnosis as they matured?

I'm guessing that the kids now have less stomachpain, constipation, and are feeling less bloated/nauseous. Thus have less voilent reactions

No, there’s a clear link between gut microbiome and behavioral/mental issues that has nothing to do with physical digestive symptoms. It’s been seen with other disorders, like depression: https://hms.harvard.edu/news/drawing-line-gut-microbiome-inf...

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#34

Post by motoboi »

delichon wrote: post #26

I got bad chronic constipation after four years as a strict carnivore. I didn't get relief just by adding back fiber, but I did by adding fermented foods like kimchi. I wonder if ferments are a more natural way than fecal transplants to repair the gut microbiome, possibly treating autism. Studies have been non conclusive, but this story makes me think it's worth pursuing.

The microbiota is passed from mother to son on birth, not totally from the environment.

What we currently don’t understand is why for some people they never got them (we have techniques to transport the biota from the mother during birth for non-natural procedures) or they loose them.

Even with the transplant, the microbes won’t stick around on those people (not taking about autistic people here, but people in general).

Diverse food really helps, just as not eating ultraprocessed (they won’t reach the end of the intestines).

Fermented and other pre or probiotics will really help too.

But none of those will recover the biota in some people.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#35

Post by Sharlin »

embedding-shape wrote: post #31
Arodex wrote: post #11

>Editor's note: Readers often ask us for follow-ups on memorable stories. What has happened to this story over the years? This article was originally published in 2019 but it has been re-edited and updated with new information current as of April 7, 2025. Enjoy! Now that is something that should be done more often - especially in science journalism, but not only. We cruelly lack long-term vision - not only forward bu…

The typical publishing methods kind of favors that approach of publishing new articles instead of updating existing ones though, for better or worse. Maybe science journalism should just adopt a wiki-model instead, where there is one article per "subject" then any new (confirmed?) information/data goes into that, and interested people can subscribe to updates there instead. Wikis generally have much better long-term…

No problem with publishing new articles, as long as they're properly contextualized and link to their predecessors – and the latter updated to link to the new information as well.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#36

Post by fontain »

delichon wrote: post #26

I got bad chronic constipation after four years as a strict carnivore. I didn't get relief just by adding back fiber, but I did by adding fermented foods like kimchi. I wonder if ferments are a more natural way than fecal transplants to repair the gut microbiome, possibly treating autism. Studies have been non conclusive, but this story makes me think it's worth pursuing.

Why did you follow a strict carnivore diet? Health? Accident? Aside from the constipation did it benefit your health?

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#37

Post by manoDev »

I wonder if there’s any study linking C-section birth, autism and microbiota? Or newborns that have to stay in incubators?

I understand a newborn gets its microbiota naturally by contact with the mom in the first days, maybe all the sterile environment involved in surgery changes that.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#38

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

delichon wrote: post #26

I got bad chronic constipation after four years as a strict carnivore. I didn't get relief just by adding back fiber, but I did by adding fermented foods like kimchi. I wonder if ferments are a more natural way than fecal transplants to repair the gut microbiome, possibly treating autism. Studies have been non conclusive, but this story makes me think it's worth pursuing.

>I got bad chronic constipation after four years as a strict carnivore.

2 questions:

1) Did your constipation start right after you did strict carnivore? Or was it after 4 years?

2) List all foods that you ate on strict carnivore. (Include salt, water etc. I presume it won't be a long list)

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#39

Post by jwrallie »

motoboi wrote: post #34
delichon wrote: post #26

I got bad chronic constipation after four years as a strict carnivore. I didn't get relief just by adding back fiber, but I did by adding fermented foods like kimchi. I wonder if ferments are a more natural way than fecal transplants to repair the gut microbiome, possibly treating autism. Studies have been non conclusive, but this story makes me think it's worth pursuing.

The microbiota is passed from mother to son on birth, not totally from the environment. What we currently don’t understand is why for some people they never got them (we have techniques to transport the biota from the mother during birth for non-natural procedures) or they loose them. Even with the transplant, the microbes won’t stick around on those people (not taking about autistic people here, but people in genera…

In some countries the number of kids born through c-section are very high, more than half the kids in Brazil are born that way for example, so definitely people can be healthy without getting it from their mothers.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#40

Post by rincebrain »

throw310822 wrote: post #30
saalweachter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the best procedure is actually sticking it in your nose. (They run a tube through your nose, down your throat, through the stomach to the top of the intestines, and introduce the bacterial slurry there.)

Makes you wonder how hard would it be to just put it in a swallowable capsule that dissolves only in the upper intestine. Also, "fecal transplant" is marketable only to weirdos. "Probiotic infusion" would work better. For those who want to gain some artistic talent, there's this (but is expensive): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist's_Shit

From my understanding, the problem is volume.

You want to land a substantial amount of, ahem, shit in there, since don't just want it to colonize one portion of the gut, and it's got quite a lot of competition.

So you would be talking a truly astonishing number of pills, I think, to compare to the volume you can manage with a tube.

WP suggests that it's about 100g (or 100000mg) of actual feces then mixed in a larger volume of saline or milk, and you'd probably need to have additional volume for assumed losses and whatever coating you think would work.

That is a _huge_ amount to put in pills.

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