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Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

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Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#31

Post by [deleted] »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #17
delichon wrote: post #3

I once lived in an apartment in Colorado with a balcony overlooking a pond. Once a grebe was paddling around in it followed by four chicks. It was a great image for the Colorado Tourism Office. Then mamma grebe swam back and swallowed the fourth chick whole, and the smaller family paddled away. Brood reduction isn't common in grebes, but I saw it anyway, and thought maybe I didn't get the straight dope from Disney mo…

When I was in college I worked in a lab where part of my job was killing rats (I actually had a real moral problem that the general term used for the killing of lab animals at this time was "sacrificing", e.g. "I sac'ed that litter of rats yesterday", because it felt like a way to lessen ones natural emotional guilt at the task. Not sure if that term is still used today.) I really had a moral quandary in what I did,…

[deleted]

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#32

Post by yreg »

Modified3019 wrote: post #28
jimbob45 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HawFh7RvDM4RyoJ2d/three-worl... Same energy as this short story.

That was a fun read, thanks.

You might like HPMOR by the same author if you don't mind the length.

https://hpmor.com/

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#33

Post by noelwelsh »

21asdffdsa12 wrote: post #30
TimByte wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less "nature knows better" and more "we usually don't know enough"

It's also a inability to accept the cthullian horror built into nature. Sentient eating sentient, everything being at constant warfare with everything else- the Grass wars the trees for the light. Add to that, the likelihood that nature will adapt new defenses in our lifetime, by for example having animals propagate hyper-allergenic plant-species - and you can begin to grasp why humanity does not want to look at the…

There are plenty of examples of cooperation in nature.

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#34

Post by [deleted] »

rixed wrote: post #8

I find the final question about human intervention fascinating. The scientists aren’t recommending intervention, even if the perpetrators tend to be the same few individuals. “We don’t know how natural it is,” says Ursula Siebert, a veterinary pathologist specializing in wildlife population health at the University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover who was not involved with the work. “It can definitely be hard to watch…

[deleted]

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#35

Post by BlackFly »

rixed wrote: post #8

I find the final question about human intervention fascinating. The scientists aren’t recommending intervention, even if the perpetrators tend to be the same few individuals. “We don’t know how natural it is,” says Ursula Siebert, a veterinary pathologist specializing in wildlife population health at the University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover who was not involved with the work. “It can definitely be hard to watch…

We have absolutely no way of reconciling ethics with animals. In human society, the same individuals will often be using force against others but those individuals may be the police or criminals. The notion of righteousness or injustice in a given situation is contingent on context. Until we can speak with animals, we lack that context. Violence is not inherently wrong: we do not know their nature.

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#36

Post by 21asdffdsa12 »

noelwelsh wrote: post #33
21asdffdsa12 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a inability to accept the cthullian horror built into nature. Sentient eating sentient, everything being at constant warfare with everything else- the Grass wars the trees for the light. Add to that, the likelihood that nature will adapt new defenses in our lifetime, by for example having animals propagate hyper-allergenic plant-species - and you can begin to grasp why humanity does not want to look at the…

There are plenty of examples of cooperation in nature.

Which though, are not a sign of harmony- its more a sort of horrific balancing act at the abyss having clear winners and losers, the losers becoming cattle, organs or worse and usually they do not defect only because then some horror from the abyss eats the whole gametheory board and their abilities have atrophied -aka cooperation usually is a sort of slavery.

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#37

Post by kergonath »

rixed wrote: post #8

I find the final question about human intervention fascinating. The scientists aren’t recommending intervention, even if the perpetrators tend to be the same few individuals. “We don’t know how natural it is,” says Ursula Siebert, a veterinary pathologist specializing in wildlife population health at the University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover who was not involved with the work. “It can definitely be hard to watch…

> Is it coming from an understandable but misleading distrust of human society and idealisation of "nature", or from a deeper understanding that "nature always knows better", I can't decide.

I don’t think it’s either. It comes from the realisation that if we intervene we are most likely to fuck things up in difficult to foresee ways. It’s humility and understanding that even though we are powerful, our understanding of things is actually quite limited.

I know a couple of biologists, and none would say anything like what you mentioned. They don’t tend to anthropomorphise nature.

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#38

Post by kergonath »

21asdffdsa12 wrote: post #36
noelwelsh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of examples of cooperation in nature.

Which though, are not a sign of harmony- its more a sort of horrific balancing act at the abyss having clear winners and losers, the losers becoming cattle, organs or worse and usually they do not defect only because then some horror from the abyss eats the whole gametheory board and their abilities have atrophied -aka cooperation usually is a sort of slavery.

> its more a sort of horrific balancing act at the abyss having clear winners and losers

No need to appeal to emotions this way. At the individual level there are only losers, and we all die. At the universe level, whatever happens, happens, and it’s up to us to find beauty in it.

Re: Cannibalistic attacks between gray seals leave telltale “corkscrew” injuries

#39

Post by kergonath »

vasco wrote: post #21
rixed wrote: post #8

I find the final question about human intervention fascinating. The scientists aren’t recommending intervention, even if the perpetrators tend to be the same few individuals. “We don’t know how natural it is,” says Ursula Siebert, a veterinary pathologist specializing in wildlife population health at the University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover who was not involved with the work. “It can definitely be hard to watch…

So strange when you look at our total interaction with the environment. We kill millions of animals, many just for literal sport, but to save an animal from another is 'too much intervention' And I bet the moral scientists sat there feeling sorry for themselves and for the seal. Meanwhile other people are destroying full ecosystems. If you feel like saving an animal from another, do it, what a ridiculous horse to dec…

> So strange when you look at our total interaction with the environment.

It’s less strange if you realise that different people have different opinions and react differently. The biologists saying that we should not intervene because we don’t understand are unlikely to be the ones hunting lions for fun. On the other end, some specimens of human beings would have absolutely zero qualms about killing every single seal on the planet.

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