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England Runestones

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Re: England Runestones

#31

Post by card_zero »

bazoom42 wrote: post #28
card_zero wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The runestone fad was kicked off by Harald Bluetooth's runestone, featuring a picture of Christ and a boast about making the Danes into Christians, and half these runestones (all emulating the Bluetooth one) mention God. But at first the politically expedient religion was just a performance, I guess, until later on they started to mean it. They probably still wore hammer amulets and so on.

> But at first the politically expedient religion was just a performance, I guess, until later on they started to mean it. Why do you think so?

I read it somewhere, years ago. So I can't remember where. I think it was an academic paper about the interactions of traders with missionaries, where by claiming to be Christian the trader wins a sale (a conversion, you might even say). But I just did some searching, will this do?

https://norse-mythology.org/the-vikings-conversion-to-christ...

> Surely some cases involved genuine religious convictions; it would be superficial and reductionistic to assume otherwise.[18] However, it seems that the majority of conversions occurred largely, and perhaps entirely, for the sake of the tangible, practical advantages that the new religion brought with it.

> [...] the Norse seem to have become convinced of the might of the Christian god largely through more down-to-earth political and economic means.[21] Viking rulers – who, as we’ve noted, were generally the first to formally convert to Christianity – wanted to forge alliances with the powerful Christian kingdoms to the south so as to consolidate their own power. The kings of those southerly kingdoms, in turn, were happy to oblige, as this enabled them to turn former enemies into pacified friends.[22] Viking kings also found that “the document-based church administration was unsurpassed and utterly useful to rule and administer a kingdom.”[23]

Re: England Runestones

#32

Post by fwipsy »

teiferer wrote: post #5
lukan wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think mainly it was, that they became civilized/baptized and christians were still free to plunder and enslave non christians, but not fellow christians. So the vikings did not just stop, but rather became crusaders: "In 1107, Sigurd I of Norway sailed for the eastern Mediterranean with Norwegian crusaders to fight for the newly established Kingdom of Jerusalem; the kings of Denmark and Sweden participated actively…

> they became civilized/baptized How are civilized and baptized comparable concepts? The vikings surely had a civilization before christianity took hold and ascribing sone kind of higher ethics to christianity is also quite a stretch.

They had their own culture and technology, but that's not the same thing as being civilized. It also includes being, well, civil. Raiding and pillaging their neighbors is not civil.

> ascribing sone (sic) kind of higher ethics to christianity is also quite a stretch.

This is subjective. Even if you disagree with Christian ethics, and even if they were frequently violated, becoming Christian still could have reduced Viking violence against their neighbors. Shared culture would improve trust and encourage alliances and trade.

Re: England Runestones

#33

Post by teunispeters »

eschulz wrote: post #2

The voyages and sagas of the vikings are very interesting, but something I find to also be fascinating is the economic and cultural history that brought about the viking age and then several centuries later ended it. It does seem kind of sudden; there was a niche that suddenly caused vikings to travel everywhere, and then it was just over.

Trade was more profitable than raid.

Look into the Hanseatic League. Pirates (to go a-Viking was to go a-pirating) became shopkeepers. But they kept up "walk softly and carry a big stick".

Re: England Runestones

#35

Post by INTPenis »

eschulz wrote: post #2

The voyages and sagas of the vikings are very interesting, but something I find to also be fascinating is the economic and cultural history that brought about the viking age and then several centuries later ended it. It does seem kind of sudden; there was a niche that suddenly caused vikings to travel everywhere, and then it was just over.

The dark ages had a power vacuum that made pillaging more profitable than trading.

I think the vikings were actually among the last of their kind, the last to become christianized and part of the European trade network. And that might be why they're so fascinating.

Re: England Runestones

#36

Post by pseudohadamard »

lukan wrote: post #4
eschulz wrote: post #2

The voyages and sagas of the vikings are very interesting, but something I find to also be fascinating is the economic and cultural history that brought about the viking age and then several centuries later ended it. It does seem kind of sudden; there was a niche that suddenly caused vikings to travel everywhere, and then it was just over.

I think mainly it was, that they became civilized/baptized and christians were still free to plunder and enslave non christians, but not fellow christians. So the vikings did not just stop, but rather became crusaders: "In 1107, Sigurd I of Norway sailed for the eastern Mediterranean with Norwegian crusaders to fight for the newly established Kingdom of Jerusalem; the kings of Denmark and Sweden participated actively…

  I think mainly it was, that they became civilized/baptized and christians were still free to plunder and enslave non christians, but not fellow christians.
That's what made them so successful in raiding England. The churches collected all the wealth and no-one dared question it or touch it because it belonged to God, or at least his ground staff. Then the (pagan) vikings, who had entirely different gods, saw these convenient concentrations of wealth in one place and helped themselves.

Re: England Runestones

#37

Post by pseudohadamard »

vintermann wrote: post #8
teiferer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they became civilized/baptized How are civilized and baptized comparable concepts? The vikings surely had a civilization before christianity took hold and ascribing sone kind of higher ethics to christianity is also quite a stretch.

"Civilization" is ill-defined anyway. What's certain is that long before they embraced Christianity in a form other European Christians would recognize as such, they admired Europe. Europe had great buildings, castles, cathedrals, palaces, walled cities, places of learning, markets, unlike anything in Scandinavia at the time. They wanted those things. And they could only get so far as pirates and slavers.

Did they though? Before they went native, the crusaders looked down on muslims who lived in palaces, took baths (the horror!), knew about hygiene, and so on. Did a manosphere looksmaxxing viking really care about places of learning and soft beds?

Re: England Runestones

#38

Post by vintermann »

pseudohadamard wrote: post #37
vintermann wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Civilization" is ill-defined anyway. What's certain is that long before they embraced Christianity in a form other European Christians would recognize as such, they admired Europe. Europe had great buildings, castles, cathedrals, palaces, walled cities, places of learning, markets, unlike anything in Scandinavia at the time. They wanted those things. And they could only get so far as pirates and slavers.

Did they though? Before they went native, the crusaders looked down on muslims who lived in palaces, took baths (the horror!), knew about hygiene, and so on. Did a manosphere looksmaxxing viking really care about places of learning and soft beds?

I think you're maybe projecting modern ideas on them... Yes, it's easy to see from Norse poetry that "wisdom", knowing the secrets of the world, was extremely important to them. They were also fond of wealth, luxury goods and political power clearly.

Norse mythology is, like Greek mythology, extremely fatalistic. But there's also this idea that basically all power is stolen, and that fate will give the thieves their come-uppance. The first king got his power by murdering or dominating his brothers. The world as we know it was arguably created by a betrayal, if not a patricide - made from the body of the first giant - and his children are forever seeking revenge. The worm of spite gnaws at the tree of life, and is fated to eventually kill it. The closest thing to hope you have, is that old one eye might share some of his secret fate-postponing magic tricks with you.

So the natural conclusion when you hear of immensely powerful kings who seemingly get away with it, is that those guys must know some powerful secrets about reality.

Re: England Runestones

#39

Post by lukan »

vintermann wrote: post #38
pseudohadamard wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they though? Before they went native, the crusaders looked down on muslims who lived in palaces, took baths (the horror!), knew about hygiene, and so on. Did a manosphere looksmaxxing viking really care about places of learning and soft beds?

I think you're maybe projecting modern ideas on them... Yes, it's easy to see from Norse poetry that "wisdom", knowing the secrets of the world, was extremely important to them. They were also fond of wealth, luxury goods and political power clearly. Norse mythology is, like Greek mythology, extremely fatalistic. But there's also this idea that basically all power is stolen , and that fate will give the thieves their…

"The worm of spite gnaws at the tree of life, and is fated to eventually kill it."

But then again, there is the new beginning. Ragnarok is not the end of the world in a christian sense, but it goes in circles.

Re: England Runestones

#40

Post by teiferer »

pseudohadamard wrote: post #37
vintermann wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Civilization" is ill-defined anyway. What's certain is that long before they embraced Christianity in a form other European Christians would recognize as such, they admired Europe. Europe had great buildings, castles, cathedrals, palaces, walled cities, places of learning, markets, unlike anything in Scandinavia at the time. They wanted those things. And they could only get so far as pirates and slavers.

Did they though? Before they went native, the crusaders looked down on muslims who lived in palaces, took baths (the horror!), knew about hygiene, and so on. Did a manosphere looksmaxxing viking really care about places of learning and soft beds?

> manosphere looksmaxxing viking

That's more rooted in Hollywood than reality.

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