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I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#31

Post by Quarrelsome »

ndarray wrote: post #26
KaiserPro wrote: post #7

I'm assuming that they've not been to a "normal" UK carehome now. Its staffed with minimum wage workers who are in perilous conditions, with no support, time or backup. They are cleaning shit a piss all day long, and being shouted at for being foreign by the demented.

This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.

We see this in UK prisons too, because the pay is so low, the work is dangerous and conditions are kinda shit there's now an increasing amount of hybristophiliacs (people attracted to criminals) being found within the service, who start up romantic relationships with prisoners and corrupt the service. It's harder to weed these people out when you're desperate for staff.

The solution is to pay these positions well enough to attract people who genuinely believe in the profession. But society optimises away from doing that because there's no obvious ROI outside of making running costs cheaper.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#32

Post by ndarray »

badgersnake wrote: post #29
ndarray wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.

So you don’t think any of this is down to not enough staff and poor training?

I'm sure there are many systemic issues but the primary victims are the elders. For starters, they don't have a choice but to be there.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#33

Post by ndarray »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #31
ndarray wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.

We see this in UK prisons too, because the pay is so low, the work is dangerous and conditions are kinda shit there's now an increasing amount of hybristophiliacs (people attracted to criminals) being found within the service, who start up romantic relationships with prisoners and corrupt the service. It's harder to weed these people out when you're desperate for staff. The solution is to pay these positions well eno…

Great, and I do agree, we know who to pay more (and who less), but how do we get there democratically? Should we vote for the party that says "we support LGBT and an infinite influx of cheap labor" or the "we support the military and the free market" party?

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#34

Post by scotty79 »

BoredPositron wrote: post #8

Give me the freedom to end my life when I want to end it and you don't have to care about my care and I bet I am not the only one.

You have that freedom. But in most countries you'll have no support. So you have to arrange for it yourself. Which might be fair. Also if you have people in your life they might object.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#35

Post by Quarrelsome »

ndarray wrote: post #33
Quarrelsome wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see this in UK prisons too, because the pay is so low, the work is dangerous and conditions are kinda shit there's now an increasing amount of hybristophiliacs (people attracted to criminals) being found within the service, who start up romantic relationships with prisoners and corrupt the service. It's harder to weed these people out when you're desperate for staff. The solution is to pay these positions well eno…

Great, and I do agree, we know who to pay more (and who less), but how do we get there democratically? Should we vote for the party that says "we support LGBT and an infinite influx of cheap labor" or the "we support the military and the free market" party?

I think its one of those ones where we don't fix it because the market conditions of democracy can never justify spending that money in terms of prisons and most families of people who need care see limited value in spending more for an experience they don't receive. Improved spending in prisons only works in nordic societies because of laws that would never pass elsewhere, mostly allowing ex-convicts to not disclose their past (with some exemptions for sensitive jobs). You need that because the ROI in spending more on prisons is rehabilitation into society (which saves you the money on re-offending), but most other societies don't accept that and the maths is long term.

So we'll get the robots instead and the cries in response to the horrors of malfunction, will not be heard because the victims are politically weak. I only hope we never do this in education.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#36

Post by BoredPositron »

chasil wrote: post #12
BoredPositron wrote: post #8

Give me the freedom to end my life when I want to end it and you don't have to care about my care and I bet I am not the only one.

Can you guarantee that you will feel the same as your mobility becomes more and more restricted? Do you think that your current resolve is correct for everyone around you, and should be generally mandated? I agree to a reluctance to rely upon others, in the face of infirmity, but will I have the courage to forego that reliance in euthasia? I don't know.

>> Give me the freedom to end my life when I want to end it...

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#37

Post by ambicapter »

ndarray wrote: post #32
badgersnake wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don’t think any of this is down to not enough staff and poor training?

I'm sure there are many systemic issues but the primary victims are the elders. For starters, they don't have a choice but to be there.

To play the devil's advocate, if the issues are systemic, the elders are the ones that have been cultivating that system their whole lives.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#38

Post by KaiserPro »

ndarray wrote: post #26
KaiserPro wrote: post #7

I'm assuming that they've not been to a "normal" UK carehome now. Its staffed with minimum wage workers who are in perilous conditions, with no support, time or backup. They are cleaning shit a piss all day long, and being shouted at for being foreign by the demented.

This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.

> and you're empathizing with the guards.

I am noting that the current system is dystopian, and pointed out the causes for those dystopian.

I would have hoped that the implication is obvious: the system is at fault.

In the UK at least, I reject that homes are run like prisons, mainly because prisons here have much less staff and a lower standard of cleanliness. We also don't (yet) have private prisons.

"solving" adult social care is a big issue that can't be solved by staffing alone.

Re: I have seen the dystopian future of elderly care

#39

Post by KaiserPro »

chaostheory wrote: post #9
KaiserPro wrote: post #7

I'm assuming that they've not been to a "normal" UK carehome now. Its staffed with minimum wage workers who are in perilous conditions, with no support, time or backup. They are cleaning shit a piss all day long, and being shouted at for being foreign by the demented.

I feel that this is the case in most developed countries unless you can afford to pay $10,000 - $20,000 per month for an upscale nursing home. Robots might make it a little less terrible.

I am somewhat sympathetic to this view. I know its not popular.

But, given the deficiency of the UK to actually grasp the nettle of adult social care, this is probably what we'll get.

A better way, perhaps is better integration of care in the community, as in old people mixed in and around young. (safeguarding issue need to be solved though)

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