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Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

nytimes.com

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Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#31

Post by mcphage »

ericmay wrote: post #26
mcphage wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think this war is (a) likely to convince Iran to not pursue nuclear weapons, or (b) convince Iran that nuclear weapons are a necessity for their continued existence? I'm pretty sure it's (b), and that between Russia's attack on Ukraine, and the US's attack on Iran, all it will do is convince the rest of the world that they absolutely need nuclear weapons.

Iran was already convinced that they needed to pursue nuclear weapons. They were still doing so under the JCPOA and even in cases where countries offered free, unlimited material for civilian nuclear reactors Iran refused. Why refuse? It's obvious. They shouldn't have needed a JCPOA anyway - why was Iran pursuing nuclear weapons in the first place? The US didn't attack Iran in the early or mid-2000s, for example. Do…

> They shouldn't have needed a JCPOA anyway - why was Iran pursuing nuclear weapons in the first place?

This current war is why.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#32

Post by ericmay »

legitster wrote: post #30
ericmay wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comparing Iran to North Korea is something someone with no actual understanding of Iran would do. Iran is not a hermit kingdom. That was your comparison, not mine. My comparison was that once they obtain a nuclear weapon, there's nothing we can do anymore. They can obtain more, and then use them as a threat to tax the Straight, further enriching their regime, &c. That's what has happened to North Korea (minus the s…

Those JCPOA concerns are pure Fox New lore: 1. We had anytime/anywhere access to their nuclear facilities and 24 day access to any square inch of their country. They never violated that part of the agreement and it's also silly to think intelligence didn't already know where all the facilities were. 2. The payments were a trivial part of the deal. It's especially ironic given this administration keeps offering paymen…

> This is the crux of the thing though. North Korea, Pakistan, Israel, and even South Africa all had successful and clandestine nuclear programs without any military intervention. Going to war with Iran is completely arbitrary - there is no direct threat to the US, and we did it without any cooperation with any of the countries actually dependent on Gulf oil.

Or maybe we just learned our lesson. Is the world better for each of those countries having nuclear weapons? I think not. Why permit yet another one to join the club? Why does Iran get special treatment? Do we need a JCPOA with all other countries, to pay them off as well to not get nuclear weapons? If you are in favor of nuclear non-proliferation you have to become a circus star to be able to jump through all of the contradictory hoops needed to justify somehow giving Iran special treatment or suggesting it's ok for them to have a nuclear bomb.

Calling the war completely arbitrary is intellectually dishonest and pointless in a discussion.

> and we did it without any cooperation with any of the countries actually dependent on Gulf oil.

As quoted by German defense minister Boris Pistorius:

“What does … Donald Trump expect a handful or two handfuls of European frigates to do in the Strait of Hormuz that the powerful U.S. Navy cannot do?” [1]

There is no country or coalition of countries that can do anything about this. They lack any meaningful military capabilities to stop Iran. What exactly is there to cooperate on? Iran is already sanctioned by the EU [2] for example. If we think it needs to be done, we just do it. It's not up to those who have no ability to do anything about it to decide whether we get to do something or not. I don't agree with how Trump has handled that aspect of the war, but the grandstanding and pearl clutching over a non-existent and not to come into existence coalition against Iran is mostly falling on deaf ears.

[1] https://thehill.com/policy/defense/5786066-trump-allies-stra...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/too-early-talk-abo...

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#33

Post by ericmay »

mcphage wrote: post #31
ericmay wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran was already convinced that they needed to pursue nuclear weapons. They were still doing so under the JCPOA and even in cases where countries offered free, unlimited material for civilian nuclear reactors Iran refused. Why refuse? It's obvious. They shouldn't have needed a JCPOA anyway - why was Iran pursuing nuclear weapons in the first place? The US didn't attack Iran in the early or mid-2000s, for example. Do…

> They shouldn't have needed a JCPOA anyway - why was Iran pursuing nuclear weapons in the first place? This current war is why.

We wouldn't have a war if Iran wasn't pursuing nuclear weapons. It's post-hoc justification.

The JCPOA excuse can quietly and safely be discarded. It's a bad argument.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#34

Post by ericmay »

atmavatar wrote: post #21
ericmay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't have another North Korea sitting in the Middle East with control over so much oil supply. Don't want Gulf States to go and get nuclear weapons in response to Iran getting them (nuclear non-proliferation).

Keep in mind that there's only a risk of Iran gaining nuclear weapons in the first place because Trump in his first term reneged on the deal where we had inspectors in Iran to ensure they weren't making them. Random, unprovoked attacks by other countries only underscores Iran's need to build nuclear weapons. Mission accomplished.

This is false because Iran was pursuing a nuclear weapon before Trump ever came into office. the JCPOA was signed under Obama. It wouldn't have existed had Iran not already been pursuing nuclear weapons.

Iran can obviously hide nuclear weapons and uranium enrichment activities from the inspectors. Unless of course you believe the US intelligence agency and inspection agencies are capable of perfect intelligence. :)

> Random, unprovoked attacks by other countries only underscores Iran's need to build nuclear weapons. Mission accomplished.

Doesn't make sense. You're ignoring Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, and other geostrategic concerns. Even if Iran wasn't trying to build a nuclear weapon they were stockpiling missiles such that they could seize control over the Straight of Hormuz and ensure tolls were paid to their autocratic regime. It's beyond bizarre to me that someone can, presumably in an honest way, think that this war just randomly started and was unprovoked. Incompatible world views.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#35

Post by legitster »

ericmay wrote: post #32
legitster wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those JCPOA concerns are pure Fox New lore: 1. We had anytime/anywhere access to their nuclear facilities and 24 day access to any square inch of their country. They never violated that part of the agreement and it's also silly to think intelligence didn't already know where all the facilities were. 2. The payments were a trivial part of the deal. It's especially ironic given this administration keeps offering paymen…

> This is the crux of the thing though. North Korea, Pakistan, Israel, and even South Africa all had successful and clandestine nuclear programs without any military intervention. Going to war with Iran is completely arbitrary - there is no direct threat to the US, and we did it without any cooperation with any of the countries actually dependent on Gulf oil. Or maybe we just learned our lesson. Is the world better f…

If it's purely about non-proliferation then partnering with Israel on this is extremely hypocritical.

> If we think it needs to be done, we just do it. It's not up to those who have no ability to do anything about it to decide whether we get to do something or not.

Says who? I don't think anyone outside of a small group of hyper-Imperialists actually believe this.

Even if I bought the premise that a war is preferable to the JCPOA, what's the actual end goal? Bombing Iran into submission was always a delusionary idea. Taking and occupying the country is the only realistic, long-term path if we want to go down this hardline path.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#36

Post by _DeadFred_ »

DrProtic wrote: post #18

Killing children is costly business.

Especially when you use smart weapons to try to minimize it from happening as collatoral damage (though that doesn't change the awefulness when a school seems to have wrongly been targeted, smart weapons are only as good as their target information).

It's much cheaper to just gun down 30,000 protestors in the street protesting that they don't want to be raped by Islamic religious morality police if they don't wear hats. Or to just fire missiles randomly at civilian areas such as the one that resulted in 11 year old Nesia Karadi dying today from the sever wounds she sustained from Iran's missiles fired into Israeli civilian areas.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#37

Post by _DeadFred_ »

atmavatar wrote: post #21
ericmay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't have another North Korea sitting in the Middle East with control over so much oil supply. Don't want Gulf States to go and get nuclear weapons in response to Iran getting them (nuclear non-proliferation).

Keep in mind that there's only a risk of Iran gaining nuclear weapons in the first place because Trump in his first term reneged on the deal where we had inspectors in Iran to ensure they weren't making them. Random, unprovoked attacks by other countries only underscores Iran's need to build nuclear weapons. Mission accomplished.

Iran and a large part of the top religious leaders in Shia Islam (who also run Iran a strict Islamic state) have called for the death and destruction of me and my country for my entire life. Iran has spent billions working towards that end and funded multiples of the suffering that occurred in Gaza (such as the war in Yemen. Heck Iran provided the funding that enabled Oct 7th ultimately resulting in Israel taking action in Gaza making Iran in part responsible for Gaza's horrific suffering as well).

In my lived experience, Iran and by extension Shia Islam (as it is very senior Shia Islam leaders making religious proclamations/justifications declaring it) has been at war with my country my entire life and sponsored random attacks against Americans and also non-Americans out of the hopes of weakening the US to promote their 45+ year vocally stated goal of the death/destruction of my country. They have ordered hits around the world on people that wrong speak about Islam such as Rushdie. And they kidnap/rape/murder little girls in their nation if they don't wear the proper hats. These are Islamist religious fanatics intent on reshaping the world to match Shia Islams world view. Their 'moderates' ordered 30,000 of their own people gunned down in the streets, then went to hospitals and murdered nurses and doctors that treated injured civilians. That is the 'moderate' position in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#38

Post by cholantesh »

ericmay wrote: post #34
atmavatar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that there's only a risk of Iran gaining nuclear weapons in the first place because Trump in his first term reneged on the deal where we had inspectors in Iran to ensure they weren't making them. Random, unprovoked attacks by other countries only underscores Iran's need to build nuclear weapons. Mission accomplished.

This is false because Iran was pursuing a nuclear weapon before Trump ever came into office. the JCPOA was signed under Obama. It wouldn't have existed had Iran not already been pursuing nuclear weapons. Iran can obviously hide nuclear weapons and uranium enrichment activities from the inspectors. Unless of course you believe the US intelligence agency and inspection agencies are capable of perfect intelligence. :) >…

More like you are ignoring the US' prodigious client in the region running amok.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#39

Post by cholantesh »

ericmay wrote: post #33
mcphage wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They shouldn't have needed a JCPOA anyway - why was Iran pursuing nuclear weapons in the first place? This current war is why.

We wouldn't have a war if Iran wasn't pursuing nuclear weapons. It's post-hoc justification. The JCPOA excuse can quietly and safely be discarded. It's a bad argument.

Nowhere near as bad as the question-begging premise your comment leads with.

Re: Iran war has drained U.S. supplies of critical, costly weapons

#40

Post by tastyface »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #36
DrProtic wrote: post #18

Killing children is costly business.

Especially when you use smart weapons to try to minimize it from happening as collatoral damage (though that doesn't change the awefulness when a school seems to have wrongly been targeted, smart weapons are only as good as their target information). It's much cheaper to just gun down 30,000 protestors in the street protesting that they don't want to be raped by Islamic religious morality police if they don't wear ha…

"A whole civilization will die tonight"
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