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Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

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Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#31
post #20

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct. Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other. So your question is hard to answer.

I’ve often dreamt of breeding with that mythical bird far, far away.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#32

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

How about Taraxacum officinale, the common dandelion?

It’s not quite all across the globe but pretty close, and is so adapted that it is not considered invasive any more in most places.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#33
post #30

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

Not many. Part of why we are like this is extreme mobility. Even before modern times we were always good at getting around and seem to have a desire to roam. Or at least enough of us do to mix up those gene pools.

If that were true before modern times, distinctions in appearance never could have developed.

Edit as reply because "pOsTiNg tOo FaSt":

> Before modern times there was enough mixing to keep speciation from occurring but not enough to fully homogenize.

I see. Is there some quantitative genetic similarity measure, by which it was determined that it was worth categorizing foxes and wolves and bears into distinct subspecies/breeds/whatever taxonomical categories, but not humans? I assume that's what your "speciation did not occur [enough to merit taxonomical distinction]" is based on.

I.e. by what measure are a Pygmy and a Norwegian more similar than a Sumatran and a Siberian tiger [1]?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47812581

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race. Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1],…

It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting [0]. The short of it is that social categorizations we believe in like race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way. Reich is a world-class expert in genetics. He simply commits the same error as many other other experts in discounting the complexity…

> race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way

Please explain the complications. Use scientific terms only.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many. Part of why we are like this is extreme mobility. Even before modern times we were always good at getting around and seem to have a desire to roam. Or at least enough of us do to mix up those gene pools.

If that were true before modern times, distinctions in appearance never could have developed. Edit as reply because "pOsTiNg tOo FaSt": > Before modern times there was enough mixing to keep speciation from occurring but not enough to fully homogenize. I see. Is there some quantitative genetic similarity measure, by which it was determined that it was worth categorizing foxes and wolves and bears into distinct subspec…

It’s not binary. Before modern times there was enough mixing to keep speciation from occurring but not enough to fully homogenize.

If our modern world continues for thousands of years eventually our differences will start to dissolve.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#36
Every time I read about ancient DNA work, it's about Reich's research. Can anyone expert in the field shed light on that? He certainly seems to have a successful research group. And he's a good communicator, I got a lot out of his 2018 book. Who else should I be reading or reading about?

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race. Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1],…

It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting [0]. The short of it is that social categorizations we believe in like race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way. Reich is a world-class expert in genetics. He simply commits the same error as many other other experts in discounting the complexity…

The crux of that letter is the "need to recognize that meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation exist in our species that are not racial." This is true. However, this does not mean that there aren't also meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation that do stratify according to ancestry (not race!). The letter tries to handwave this away, claiming that "[f]or several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference." This is simply not true, as studies like the subject of this discussion demonstrate.

The letter also states that "[t]he public should not cede the power to define race to scientists who themselves are not trained to understand the social contexts that shape the formation of this fraught category." Also true! This is exactly why Reich explicitly avoids discussing "races" but rather populations and ancestries, which are rigorously defined strictly in terms of genetics. With respect to population structures and ancestry, Reich is indeed an expert.

I'll add that very few of the signatories of that letter have any experience, let alone expertise in genetics. Here are the first few:

  Jonathan Kahn, James E. Kelley Professor of Law, Mitchell Hamline School of Law

  Alondra Nelson, Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies, Columbia University; President, Social Science Research Council

  Joseph L. Graves Jr., Associate Dean for Research & Professor of Biological Sciences, Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Section G: Biological Sciences, Joint School of Nanoscience & Nanoengineering, North Carolina A&T State University, UNC Greensboro

  Sarah Abel, Postdoc, Department of Anthropology, University of Iceland

  Ruha Benjamin, Associate Professor, Department of African American Studies, Princeton University

  Sarah Blacker, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin

  Catherine Bliss, Associate Professor, Social and Behavioral Sciences, UC San Francisco
Out of the 67 signatories, I counted approximately 5 who might have sufficient genetics expertise to offer a meaningful scientific counterpoint to Reich's work (this is being charitable, as I included titles like "Professor of Biological Sciences," which is no guarantee.) The rest were in fields like anthropology, sociology, law, and history.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...distinct but able to interbreed I mean people won't like the idea but that's not my point; what you describe variety in superficial traits while maintaining common traits Applied to humans; skin color, eyes, dwarfism, hypertrichosis... can still interbreed When it comes to categorization and taxonomy in leaky abstractions like languages the boundaries get a bit hand wavy and usually land on whatever fits the pre…

> you describe variety in superficial traits The same selection pressures that produced the variety of "superficial" traits also act on "non-superficial" traits - nature does not recognize this distinction.

You cherry picked one idea from my post. I was not addressing nature but human social tropes.

What is a subspecies and species is random gibberish of the living humans

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#39

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

We dont categorize humans that way; not because humans are different but because of cultural norms.

The generous idea is that "subspecies" does not provide an anthropologist a useful lens to look at humanity, therefore we do not classify.

The alternative is that "subspecies" is too close to "race" for scientists, publishers, and funding bodies to touch, so its deliberately ignored.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#40

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

Do humans not fit the standards for being broken into multiple subspecies? I assumed that they would but "the science community" is too scared of the implications when idiots learn about it.

I look at a sumatran tiger and a Siberian tiger and I see a lot less variance than I see when I look at a pygmy, a Norwegian, an sentinel islander, and a han Chinese person

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