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Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

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Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#31

Post by bagxrvxpepzn »

boxed wrote: post #28
bagxrvxpepzn wrote: post #19

The answer to Liberalism dying isn't more Liberalism. Liberalism is dying precisely because Liberalism is wrong or at minimum, unsustainable. The attitude of the writer is exactly like the fetishists of every dead ideology, in particular Libertarians who argue "Real capitalism hasn't been tried yet!" or Communists who argue "Real communism hasn't been tried yet." These people, Liberals (capital L) included, need to g…

That anti-liberalism was born out of liberalism doesn't make liberalism wrong. It's like saying all dinosaurs were birds because birds evolved from dinosaurs. It just doesn't follow that a weird offshoot now defines the entire group retroactively back in time. It makes no sense to think like this logically.

Your argument is unironically "real Liberalism hasn't been tried yet." "critical theory" and "identity politics" are not "weird offshoots," they are unavoidable consequences of Liberalism. No matter how many times you try Liberalism it will degenerate into exactly the current situation we are facing now.

Failing to acknowledge the structural flaws of Liberalism just opens up an opportunity for ideological revolution. If the adherents of Liberalism prefer moderation, they better had start acknowledging how it's failing people. "Just Liberal harder" won't work forever.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#32

Post by throwawaypath »

noumenon1111 wrote: post #14

He glosses over Muslim history and al-Andalus with a "the Muslims were driven out of Spain" like Spain itself wasn't Muslim for almost 800 years. And then, the Enlightenment created the most peaceful time in human history, really? Seems like mutual assured destruction is what makes peace, not sound philosophy. People are forgetful and argumentative, by nature. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can have nice t…

>He glosses over Muslim history and al-Andalus with a "the Muslims were driven out of Spain" like Spain itself wasn't Muslim for almost 800 years.

Yes, the colonists were driven out. We should celebrate any time in history native and indigenous people defeat their colonizers and reclaim their indigenous lands.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#33

Post by DesaiAshu »

"Western ideals have been something genuinely new in history. The Enlightenment’s bet on reason, individual dignity, free speech, limited government, and the belief that human beings can organize their collective life through arguments rather than force produced the most prosperous, free, and peaceful societies in human history."

Most of these ideas were present in older civilizations.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#34

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

krapp wrote: post #13
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #5

And the default civilization is violent. So let us return to the matrilineal, matrifocal ways developed by those who created and nurtured life before we had a language that covered all of our needs and build replacement civilizations from there. Time to get back into the nonbinary animist ways of being.

Nah. I prefer actual medical science keeping me from dying of typhus and cholera to praying to the spirits, but you do you.

The idea that I said something so dualistic like that or that actual caring ways couldn't possibly include healing sciences learned are both delusional projections and a form of dishonesty you practiced on yourself there.

Especially when there have been recent scientific developments regarding learning how ancient ways, such as how bilateral simulation from drumming/dancing in ceremonial ritual trance with polyphonic singing engages the brain and lays the foundation for an embodied state to approach reprocessing trauma to the point of egodeath.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#35

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

weirdmantis69 wrote: post #15
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #5

And the default civilization is violent. So let us return to the matrilineal, matrifocal ways developed by those who created and nurtured life before we had a language that covered all of our needs and build replacement civilizations from there. Time to get back into the nonbinary animist ways of being.

I take it you haven't studied those cultures you deify in any great detail have you.

I'm neither naming nor deifying any specific cultures. I'm identifying infinite categories of relationalities. So what is your actual point?

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#36

Post by ratrace »

sapphicsnail wrote: post #16

Civilization is violent. The Roman Empire maintained it's economy through slavery. The Catholic Church started the crusades. This is article is the usual dumb reductionist thinking that people have been spewing every year I've been alive. > But I feel the deeper threat is internal. A generation of critical theory and identity politics has captured universities, media, and cultural institutions. The Western tradition…

[dead]

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#37

Post by HerbManic »

teekert wrote: post #6
HerbManic wrote: post #4

This is true but also those that embrace violence to closely are destined to eventually fall via violence. Power through fear has very few people trying to catch it on the way down. Everyone can have that violent tendency, the trick to acknowledge it and work around it. It is a core tenant in Taoism "All things carry yin yet embrace yang"

I read “Humankind” by Rutger Bregman and now think this is not true.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will check that out.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#38

Post by teekert »

HerbManic wrote: post #37
teekert wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read “Humankind” by Rutger Bregman and now think this is not true.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will check that out.

If anything, it’s a lot more optimistic about human nature than what we’re used too. It’s refreshing and well argued. Worth a read!

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#39

Post by HerbManic »

teekert wrote: post #38
HerbManic wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will check that out.

If anything, it’s a lot more optimistic about human nature than what we’re used too. It’s refreshing and well argued. Worth a read!

That is good to know. My original post was a bit reductionist, I do generally feel that people try to do good and are much more co-operative than adversarial. It is just that we can be dragged into a defensive/attack position easily if we do not keep an eye on that.

I suspect that despite all the issues of the world, we are slowly heading to a future that will be much more peaceful.

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