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Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

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Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#31

Post by tayo42 »

_kulang wrote: post #27
3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lead a book club once (Designing Data Intensive Applications)- read a chapter and meet every two weeks. Was a real flop. Attendance remained high, but only one other person actually finished the book. What was a real slap in the face - maybe a year after that book had concluded, someone told me I should lead another one about this other topic. She had not finished the first book, and she wanted me to regurgitate an…

Maybe there was value in the discussions that didn’t require the reading? But running seminars isn’t hobby material. If this was happening at my work, I may skim or not even read parts of the book, and still attend discussions.

There can be value, it's a networking opportunity and some companies could look favorably on it for promos.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#32

Post by amarant »

johngossman wrote: post #19
nico wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been scolded for reading books and documentation for the tasks and software I was asked to build (at a startup) during my regular work hours No company I’ve worked at has ever had dedicated time for reading papers or articles Maybe I’ve only worked at outliers?

In 35 years in the industry, reading and studying during work hours were always supported. Frankly, most places would let us play video games during work hours as long as we met our deadlines.

I've had mandated gaming on Friday after lunch. But this was in the gaming industry so it's "market research"!

We also often played board games. My favourite was playing secret Hitler with my team that one time. That was fun! (I managed to become "untouchable" while also being Hitler. That's a memorable moment!)

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#33

Post by RomanPushkin »

I've seen such reading groups. I worked for Atlassian, and there was a reading group. My impression is it was organized only as a low effort just to demonstrate that IC is going extra mile for the company. The quality of such reading groups were quite low. And it was expected that you would attend this reading group at a lunch time. You're taking your lunch with you, and instead of enjoying your meal, you're cramped in a small room with coworkers who also got their sandwiches and sugar soda. Horrible experience, and zero value.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#34

Post by yellow_postit »

smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

In my experience it is a lot like finding time to work on "strategy". There's never really explicit time given, you have to make it in the day, and its often the most valuable time spent.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#35

Post by Insanity »

markn951 wrote: post #17
smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

Speaking as a SWE manager who explicitly “mandates” (not actually mandatory but I strongly encourage following your passions and interests in an academic kind of way!) we do exist, I assume I’m not the only one :) My team almost always can find an hour between tasks organically so I’ve never really had to push

I'm a SWE manager as well. I always tell my team that learning is part of the job, and so it can happen on the job. To be honest, it worked out pretty well. and I lead by example, I'll read something interesting during work and share it with the team.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#36

Post by elankart »

RomanPushkin wrote: post #33

I've seen such reading groups. I worked for Atlassian, and there was a reading group. My impression is it was organized only as a low effort just to demonstrate that IC is going extra mile for the company. The quality of such reading groups were quite low. And it was expected that you would attend this reading group at a lunch time. You're taking your lunch with you, and instead of enjoying your meal, you're cramped…

What a buzzkill and a super negative comment.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#37

Post by Foe »

oa335 wrote: post #22
Foe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Most people read the paper on their own time, and we meet over lunch. The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block. I've found that the people who show up are the ones who are genuinely curious and would be reading this stuff anyway (and sometimes just need a commitment/accountability to do it). Having a group gives them a reason to do it on a schedule.

> The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block How exactly are the meetings structured? I.e is someone leading discussions? Does each person go around and share thoughts? Etc

We usually start with quick overall impressions, then go around with a few prompts: "what's something new you learned?", "what didn't you like?", and "what didn't you fully understand?" (every paper has something, whether it's the evaluation methodology or some algorithm detail). That last question tends to drive most of the discussion because people chime in and build on each other's answers. Sometimes you get lucky with domain expertise in the room. For example, when we read "What Every Programmer Should Know About Memory"[1], one of the attendees was a former Intel engineer who spent their career in memory systems. They answered questions the rest of us wouldn't have even known to ask.

[1] https://people.freebsd.org/~lstewart/articles/cpumemory.pdf

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#38

Post by Foe »

oa335 wrote: post #23
Foe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I think the biggest factor for us was that most attendees already had some technical baseline. That makes it way easier to pick papers and have productive discussions. A cross-experience group sounds much harder. We occasionally have non-technical people who attend (e.g., designers), but they usually are very eager to learn. The guided series format might have helped in your case, where you pick the topic…

> I think the biggest factor for us was that most attendees already had some technical baseline. That makes it way easier to pick papers and have productive discussions. Thanks for sharing your experience. How do you suss out peoples technical aptitude, and what was the minimum level you were looking for? How were your discussions structured?

The group is open to anyone at Microsoft and I don't gatekeep. The papers themselves act as a natural filter. If someone finds the material interesting, they attend and keep coming back. If it's not their thing, they self-select out. Over time, it's led to a core group of regular attendees as well as many who will join ad-hoc.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#39

Post by rectang »

I ran reading groups over several years a medium-sized startup I worked for and for an open source community I was a part of. The groups were targeted not only at engineering staff but also semi-technical positions such as product management and low-skilled data pipeline specialists, with the aim of building bridges between departments and internal recruitment.

Running those reading groups was basically how I acquired a lot of knowledge I didn't get because I didn't major in Comp Sci as an undergrad.

Books/MOOCs we went through:

* Pro Git (Chacon) [three times]

* Programming Language Pragmatics (Scott)

* Calculus first semester (Coursera/OSU/Fowler)

* Eloquent JavaScript (Haverbeke)

* Learning Perl (Schwartz/Foy) [two or three times]

* Coding the Matrix (Coursera/Brown/Klein) [didn't finish]

* Object-Oriented Programming: An Evolutionary Approach (Cox)

* Learning Core Audio (Adamson/Avila)

The level of commitment from the participants was mixed. Nobody came for the free lunch (although arranging free lunch was essential in getting people to show up). Many people had ambitions that outstripped their commitment. But there were plenty of people who took advantage and learned tons.

One fellow, who I feel immensely fortunate to have known, went from zero experience to arguably our most productive IC within 2 years, and eventually landed at a FAANG. He also took a turn leading the discussion group.

Another participant was a Product Manager who became much better able to communicate with Engineering after improving her understanding of programming fundamentals.

The sessions were generally organized around questions that people would bring about the material — my motto was "we'll struggle through together". I preferred questions posed by others but always had enough of my own to fill space.

The tips I would have for people running such groups:

First you need a discussion leader. You need someone who can get the group unstuck and who knows the material. It's the same dynamic as having a good TA for a college discussion section.

Second, remove all friction. Corporate won't buy books? Screw it, I bought 'em myself. Corporate won't arrange for lunch? Screw it, I bought it for everybody. (Our CTO was highly supportive but once the company got acquired we couldn't get budget approved anymore). The total outlay I made leading the group was a few thousand dollars — far less than I would have paid for formal courses where I would have learned less.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#40

Post by nico »

userbinator wrote: post #25
nico wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been scolded for reading books and documentation for the tasks and software I was asked to build (at a startup) during my regular work hours No company I’ve worked at has ever had dedicated time for reading papers or articles Maybe I’ve only worked at outliers?

All the companies I've worked at implicitly assume that you're supposed to use your working hours for more than just coding, including learning what you need for the task at hand, although if you're looking at very beginner material that might raise some suspicion.

In the case I mentioned above, the company wanted me to build a search engine before elastic search existed, and before there was full-text search in popular dbs like Postgres or MySQL. The CTO/founder gave me his credit card and told me to buy whatever books I needed. I bought about 5 different relevant books. Work days were about 10-12hrs, they still wanted me to read/research on my own time
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