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What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

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Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#31

Post by zozbot234 »

cogman10 wrote: post #29
hbogert wrote: post #3

It stands out, because it didn't sell. Which is weird because there were some pretty big pros about using them. The latency for updating 1 byte was crazy good. Some databases or journals for something like zfs really benefited from this.

IMO, the reason they didn't sell is the ideal usage for them is pairing them with some slow spinning disks. The issue Optane had is that SSD capacity grew dramatically while the price plummeted. The difference between Optane and SSDs was too small. Especially since the M.2 standard proliferated and SSDs took advantage of PCI-E performance. I believe Optane retained a performance advantage (and I think even today it's…

That may have been the ideal usage back in the day, but ideal usage now is just for setting up swap. Write-heavy workloads are king with Optane, and threshing to swap is the prototypical example of something that's so write-heavy it's a terrible fit for NAND. Optane might not have been "as fast as DRAM" but it was plenty close enough to be fit for purpose.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#32

Post by rkagerer »

My understanding is Optane is still unbeaten when it comes to latency. Has anyone examined its use as an OS volume, compared to today's leading SSD's? I know the throughput won't be as high, but in my experience that's not as important to how responsive your machine feels as latency.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#33

Post by bushbaba »

cogman10 wrote: post #29
hbogert wrote: post #3

It stands out, because it didn't sell. Which is weird because there were some pretty big pros about using them. The latency for updating 1 byte was crazy good. Some databases or journals for something like zfs really benefited from this.

IMO, the reason they didn't sell is the ideal usage for them is pairing them with some slow spinning disks. The issue Optane had is that SSD capacity grew dramatically while the price plummeted. The difference between Optane and SSDs was too small. Especially since the M.2 standard proliferated and SSDs took advantage of PCI-E performance. I believe Optane retained a performance advantage (and I think even today it's…

Not just capacity but SSD speeds also improved to the point it was good enough for many high memory workloads.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#34

Post by pgwalsh »

Sure, they were expensive but they have great endurance and sustained read and write speeds. I use one in my car for camera recordings. I had gone through several other drives but this one has been going on 3 or 4 years now without issue. I have a couple more in use too. It's a shame this tech is going away because it's excellent.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#35

Post by rkagerer »

rkagerer wrote: post #32

My understanding is Optane is still unbeaten when it comes to latency. Has anyone examined its use as an OS volume, compared to today's leading SSD's? I know the throughput won't be as high, but in my experience that's not as important to how responsive your machine feels as latency.

Before people claim it doesn't matter due to OS write buffering, I should point out a) today's bloated software and the many-layered, abstracted I/O stack it's built on tends to issue lots of unnecessary flushes, b) read latency is just as important as write (if not moreso) to how responsive your OS feels, particularly if the whole thing doesn't fit in (or preload to) memory.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#36

Post by speedgoose »

rkagerer wrote: post #32

My understanding is Optane is still unbeaten when it comes to latency. Has anyone examined its use as an OS volume, compared to today's leading SSD's? I know the throughput won't be as high, but in my experience that's not as important to how responsive your machine feels as latency.

I configured a hetzner ax101 bare metal server with a 480GB 3d xpoint ssd some years ago. It’s used as the boot volume and it seems fast despite the server being heavily over provisioned, but I can’t really compare because I don’t have a baseline without.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#37

Post by exmadscientist »

cogman10 wrote: post #29
hbogert wrote: post #3

It stands out, because it didn't sell. Which is weird because there were some pretty big pros about using them. The latency for updating 1 byte was crazy good. Some databases or journals for something like zfs really benefited from this.

IMO, the reason they didn't sell is the ideal usage for them is pairing them with some slow spinning disks. The issue Optane had is that SSD capacity grew dramatically while the price plummeted. The difference between Optane and SSDs was too small. Especially since the M.2 standard proliferated and SSDs took advantage of PCI-E performance. I believe Optane retained a performance advantage (and I think even today it's…

> The ideal usage of optane was as a ZIL in ZFS.

It was also the best boot drive money could buy. Still is, I think, though other comments in the thread ask how it compares against today's best, which I'd also love to see.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#38

Post by orion138 »

amluto wrote: post #30
hbogert wrote: post #3

It stands out, because it didn't sell. Which is weird because there were some pretty big pros about using them. The latency for updating 1 byte was crazy good. Some databases or journals for something like zfs really benefited from this.

Intel did a spectacularly poor job with the ecosystem around the memory cells. They made two plays, and both were flops. 1. “Optane” in DIMM form factor. This targeted (I think) two markets. First, use as slower but cheaper and higher density volatile RAM. There was actual demand — various caching workloads, for example, wanted hundreds of GB or even multiple TB in one server, and Optane was a route to get there. But…

One of the many problems was trying to limit the use of Optane to Intel devices. They should have manufactured and sold Optane memory and let other players build on top of it at a low level.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#39

Post by exmadscientist »

dangoodmanUT wrote: post #20

Optane was crazy good tech, it way just too expensive at the time for mass adoption, but the benefits were so good. Looking at those charts, besides the DWPD it feels like normal NVMe has mostly caught up. I occassionally wonder where a gen 7/8(?) optane would be today if it caught on, it'd probably be nuts.

The actual strength of Optane was on mixed workloads. It's hard to write a flash cell (read-erase-write cycle, higher program voltage, settling time, et cetera). Optane didn't have any of that baggage.

This showed up as amazing numbers on a 50%-read, 50%-write mix. Which, guess what, a lot of real workloads have, but benchmarks don't often cover well. This is why it's a great OS boot drive: there's so much cruddy logging going on (writes) at the same time as reads to actually load the OS. So Optane was king there.

Re: What makes Intel Optane stand out (2023)

#40

Post by exmadscientist »

Around the time of Optane's discontinuation, the rumor mill was saying that the real reason it got the axe was that it couldn't be shrunk any, so its costs would never go down. Does anyone know if that's true? I never heard anything solid, but it made a lot of sense given what we know about Optane's fab process.

And if no shrink was possible, is that because it was (a) possible but too hard; (b) known blocks to a die shrink; or (c) execs didn't want to pay to find out?

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