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Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

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Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#31

Post by whatshisface »

alwa wrote: post #29
dluan wrote: post #2

We have a massive poisoning of the commons catastrophe coming, driven by further authoritarian government overreach and control. I've seen no one working on this, and in fact most people on HN seem to be working on ways to further exacerbate this problem. I don't just mean half solutions like tor or social protocols that let you in and out of walled gardens. There's still a tiny window of opportunity for engineers to…

I agree that it feels like the tiny window of opportunity hasn't quite shut yet, and it's a problem space I know I should take more interest in. What do you see as the viable technical directions? Something along the lines of what Altman was trying to do with his Orb? Something along the lines of the C2PA's Content Credentials? [0] e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/sam-altman-tools-for-humanit... and the feature p…

Instead of collecting biometric info from humans and IDing all of their online movements, you could mandate that LLM output be watermarked (using a technology that Scott Arronson was hired by OpenAI to help develop, after which the project was shut down under Altman right after proving that it could work) so that their online movement would be IDed. The implication in this story that it was shut down to keep the Orb around in principle (telling humans they had to be tagged to distinguish them from machines that could more easily be tagged) is very easy to pick up.

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#32

Post by mhitza »

slopinthebag wrote: post #25
mhitza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can point me at someone that would fund such projects (not VCs), would be happy to apply. Projects like NLNet aren't keen on funding larger scope projects. At least if you do not have the thought leader influencer clout.

What are your ideas for this?

Decentralized platform, with traceable decisions, mixing direct web of trust, delegated, and community moderated content labeling. Content servers with pay to post submissions, to allow sustainable hosting and hosting delegated moderation.

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#33

Post by gruez »

kubb wrote: post #24
gruez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It feels like "Autonomous Coding Agents" are being astroturfed on the daily on HN. The same arguments and tropes are echoing through every thread. Isn't this what exactly you'd expect in a connected world? The best arguments from both sides proliferate, thereby causing "The same arguments and tropes are echoing through every thread".

> Isn't this what exactly you'd expect in a connected world? I would expect a figurative war for human attention. With so much information being available, everyone would try to make people focus on what they want to communicate. > The best arguments Some of these tropes and arguments aren't really the best. There's a lot of rhetorical gotchas, e.g. "that's exactly what I'd expect from a human" when an automated solu…

>I would expect a figurative war for human attention. With so much information being available, everyone would try to make people focus on what they want to communicate.

How does this relate to online commenting? Are you expecting the "figurative war for human attention" to make comments more diverse?

>Some of these tropes and arguments aren't really the best. There's a lot of rhetorical gotchas, e.g. "that's exactly what I'd expect from a human" when an automated solution isn't up to par.

I think you're overestimating the epistemic rigor of the average internet commenter, eternal September, etc.

>The only real "side" is the one actively pushing for something

Are you implying the "astroturfing" is only on one side? If you might just be experiencing motivated reasoning and/or confirmation bias. Most of the astroturfing behavior can be applied to the anti-AI side as well, eg. people complaining about electricity or water consumption in every thread about the impacts of AI, or "ai slop".

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#34

Post by plun9 »

Bridged7756 wrote: post #23

This is notorious in platforms like reddit, with people jumping in to suggest no name products in response to questions. It doesn't help that reddit allows private profiles, thus allowing astroturfers to get away with it. Also, another case is LLM astroturfing, we're bombarded with doomerism and obituaries about programming, some of said opinions are subtler, short comments, the most dangerous ones, because little by…

Here is an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/comments/dty9nd/com... Here, PM_ME_UR_LIDAR uses the pronoun "their" referring to Ouster, the lidar company. But PM_ME_UR_LIDAR was working at Ouster, Inc. at the time the comment was written.

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#35

Post by SilverElfin »

> Recent events in the world have highlighted just how influential social media can be, both in a national context and internationally. To list a few examples: platforms like Twitter and Facebook played a prominent role in the events surrounding the recent US presidential elections; social media and messaging platforms made possible the many decentralized mass protests that have popped up around the globe, from the pro-democracy movements in Hong Kong, Thailand and Belarus to the Black Lives Matter protests in the United States; and of course, the whole of the internet, for better or worse, played a role in shaping how the world responds to the COVID-19 pandemic. But with great power comes the great potential for manipulation and misuse.

I think everyone would agree with this but is there any formal evidence of how Twitter and TikTok affect elections or legislation?

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#38

Post by droidjj »

bpavuk wrote: post #27

related: https://doublespeed.ai/ - basically astroturfing as a service. their landing page stops short of saying that Doublespeed would be "a good fit for your political campaign." I'd prefer fighting an AI-powered drone over becoming a victim of "Dead Internet-aaS" startup. at least, flying lawnmowers are honest

Wow… that’s one of the most dystopian things I’ve seen in a while.

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#39

Post by kubb »

gruez wrote: post #33
kubb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this what exactly you'd expect in a connected world? I would expect a figurative war for human attention. With so much information being available, everyone would try to make people focus on what they want to communicate. > The best arguments Some of these tropes and arguments aren't really the best. There's a lot of rhetorical gotchas, e.g. "that's exactly what I'd expect from a human" when an automated solu…

>I would expect a figurative war for human attention. With so much information being available, everyone would try to make people focus on what they want to communicate. How does this relate to online commenting? Are you expecting the "figurative war for human attention" to make comments more diverse? >Some of these tropes and arguments aren't really the best. There's a lot of rhetorical gotchas, e.g. "that's exactly…

> How does this relate to online commenting?

A viable strategy is to disseminate messaging reinforcing a belief beneficial for the disseminating entity, in a way that invokes emotion (like fear or anger), especially in influential spaces allowing for anonymity.

But in general this line of questioning won't lead to a satisfying conclusion. The assumptions you requested (connected world) aren't specific enough to determine what we should expect from comments in online spaces (and by extension, to demonstrate that the current situation is a natural outcome).

> I think you're overestimating the epistemic rigor of the average internet commenter, eternal September, etc.

Yeah, but this place, quite frankly, is above average. Not to the point of being immune to manipulation, obviously.

> Are you implying the "astroturfing" is only on one side?

No. I'm pointing out the "two sides" framing that you insist on is a mistake. There is only one organized camp with a clear financial incentive to have people believe in "Autonomous Coding Agents" which justifies capital investements in that area.

People who are concerned about power consumption, people who don't like hardware unavailability, and people who think that LLMs are useful tools, but they're not even close to autonomous delivery of software systems are all distinct groups without financial incentives. But they do have the right to push back against the relentless messaging barrage from the camp.

Re: Online astroturfing: A problem beyond disinformation (2022)

#40

Post by Lerc »

I recently did some looking into how public perception campaigns work.

I found it amazing that I could not find any organisation that tracks these campaigns. These are often very well funded and those funds go to people.

Part of the problem is a successful public opinion campaign results in something that most people believe, we probably only get to see the failures. Challenging something that is widely held is not well received, whether or not you are right or wrong.

Some things I did find out. Fake news stories don't change people's opinions very much. They enable media to shape narratives because people will reject genuine stories outside the narrative because they know that fake news stories exist. Fake news exists to be seen as fake to establish that the things you disagree with could also be fake.

There are companies that specialise in this.

Reputation management companies might tell you who their clients are or what they do, but never at the same time. I suspect the best ones do neither.

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