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Last Statements

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Re: Last Statements

#31

Post by blell »

maest wrote: post #13
galkk wrote: post #10

The deeds are horrifying to read. You can do nothing wrong and die by hands of some piece of shit just because you were at wrong place at wrong time. follow up actions of some are even more sad and scary. Killing another human being meant nothing to some of murderers, like killing a fly. Those apologies are too little too late. Good riddance. I have no sympathy for them, and I’m all in for using those for involuntary…

Yes, those acts are immensely terrible and the apologies feel minuscule by comparison. But I think there's room for more nuance here. There are multiple reasons we put people in jail: 1. the victims can feel some vindication and retribution 2. other members of society can feel some vindication and retribution and a sense of justice 3. other would-be criminals are detered from committing similar crimes for fear of pun…

The Nordic countries do not have the demographics of the US. There’s some kind of person who is not reformable.

Re: Last Statements

#32

Post by childintime »

worthless-trash wrote: post #12
fkdk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I advise having a read through Sapolskys book "Determined" to get another perspective

What is your goal in asking someone to read this book, we're supposed to have sympathy for those who have had a bad rap in nature and nurture. That 'the system' is responsible for driving them to their actions ?

> That 'the system' is responsible for driving them to their actions ?

not the system, but the design of life itself we all sustain. the "system" is only a projection of it.

everything that happens in the world is your responsibility also, as you help make it happen. it's our world after all.

if something happens but is not supposed to happen, either the person made a mistake, or the design is broken and nudges to make it happen, or both. blame-the-person is the default strategy, but it doesn't lead to a better design, and it denies the plain reality that the design puts some people at the center, so they can party and are not to be bothered by the downsides of their actions, and others are pushed to the edge, and will fall off. by design.

you probably prefer to pay the police than to pay someone a meal so she doesn't need to steal and expose herself to the risk of killing someone. it's what people at the center would think, but it's not a good idea to give them power over the design of our lives that puts them first.

there's clearly worthless trash on both sides of the equation.

Re: Last Statements

#33

Post by worthless-trash »

childintime wrote: post #32
worthless-trash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your goal in asking someone to read this book, we're supposed to have sympathy for those who have had a bad rap in nature and nurture. That 'the system' is responsible for driving them to their actions ?

> That 'the system' is responsible for driving them to their actions ? not the system, but the design of life itself we all sustain. the "system" is only a projection of it. everything that happens in the world is your responsibility also, as you help make it happen. it's our world after all. if something happens but is not supposed to happen, either the person made a mistake, or the design is broken and nudges to ma…

> everything that happens in the world is your responsibility also, as you help make it happen. it's our world after all.

No, there clearly are things that are 'outside the individual or groups control'. There are three kinds of events, things we can control, things we have partial control, and things we can't control.

Nobody is responsible for the sun rising, nobody is responsible for gravity. Nobody is responsible for another persons actions, each person has choice, love it or hate it they do.

If you can't see that I don't know what to say, we fundamentally have a disagreement on reality.

If individuals are 'responsible' for everything, we all should share the same yolk of punishment for individual actions, and this should extend to all sentient life, why stop at people, why not kill their pets and farm animals, trees and plants nearby, (I assume this is what you want, see what i did there ?)

> you probably prefer to pay the police than to pay someone a meal so she doesn't need to steal and expose herself to the risk of killing someone

Please don't assume my take on caring for people, this take is very wrong.

> there's clearly worthless trash on both sides of the equation.

Right back at ya ;P

Re: Last Statements

#34

Post by orwin »

blell wrote: post #31
maest wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those acts are immensely terrible and the apologies feel minuscule by comparison. But I think there's room for more nuance here. There are multiple reasons we put people in jail: 1. the victims can feel some vindication and retribution 2. other members of society can feel some vindication and retribution and a sense of justice 3. other would-be criminals are detered from committing similar crimes for fear of pun…

The Nordic countries do not have the demographics of the US. There’s some kind of person who is not reformable.

One of the man was convicted and put to death for killing his abusive mother. Don't get me wrong, killing is bad, he should feel bad and get punished, but his brother forgave him, he already did 20 (!) years, I don't know who you're protecting by putting him to death. A second mother?

Re: Last Statements

#35

Post by iammjm »

"Charles Thompson, executed January 28, 2026 In April 1998, Thompson forced his way into a Houston residence and shot a man and a woman following an argument. Both victims succumbed to their injuries as a result of the shooting."

Wow so they kept this guy for almost 30 years on death row and then killed him. USA is so fucked

Re: Last Statements

#36

Post by Macha »

worthless-trash wrote: post #24
sam0x17 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always felt very alone in my view on this, so don't feel bad if you disagree with me because most people probably do, but I just feel super morally icky when I hear about how part of our justice system is built around "retribution" / "vindication". Like it is one thing to punish, it is quite another to allow others to derive some sort of satisfaction from that punishment, even if they were victims, I just find i…

I think this thought process is something that only people who have never been wronged can afford. There comes a time in life where the punishment must fit the crime, even if its only to make an example of the criminal. Life is hard enough, we should deter crimes at every possibility, people are rarely punished for every evil they commit.

I was mugged as a teenager, and my house was burned down as an adult because a drug dealer lived on the same street.

Does that count me as sufficiently wronged to not be dismissed for sharing the parent posters viewpoint?

Re: Last Statements

#37

Post by worthless-trash »

Macha wrote: post #36
worthless-trash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this thought process is something that only people who have never been wronged can afford. There comes a time in life where the punishment must fit the crime, even if its only to make an example of the criminal. Life is hard enough, we should deter crimes at every possibility, people are rarely punished for every evil they commit.

I was mugged as a teenager, and my house was burned down as an adult because a drug dealer lived on the same street. Does that count me as sufficiently wronged to not be dismissed for sharing the parent posters viewpoint?

If it doesn't.. it wasnt.

Re: Last Statements

#38

Post by SirFatty »

llbbdd wrote: post #11
fkdk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I advise having a read through Sapolskys book "Determined" to get another perspective

I appreciate the recommendation and I will read it (I also appreciate that you made a recommendation instead of downvoting me), however I don't think free will has much to do with this. If they were predetermined to be like this then I have sympathy for the bad dice roll, but once they've stomped an infant to death they're always that person. It doesn't change much about how to deal with them; you can't trust that th…

"If they were predetermined to be like this..."

Lack of free will is not the same is predeterminism.

Re: Last Statements

#39

Post by ithkuil »

galkk wrote: post #26
ithkuil wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those convicted are rightfully convicted. But paint me skeptical as to whether increased use of technology can actually improve the reliability of the proofs. Imagine a world where deep fakes are much better quality but our system hasn't yet caught up to take that into proper consideration etc. Serving for life is already a big deal as punishment goes. I'm just asking to not have…

I was thinking about deep fakes and tech advancements. Yes, that will add doubts etc. but you know what? There always will be ways. If somebody was convicted in 2015 most likely there weren’t any deep fakes. Let’s look at, let’s say, Apple and its tight control over entire hardware and software iPhone stack. Nothing prevents them to announce that starting from iPhone 19 they cryptographically sign the video to ensure…

The problem is that I do understand you! I do feel exactly as you do! My lizard brain would like to do all sorts of horrible retaliations to those people who performed such abhorrent acts. I get it, it's natural.

But I think that society should prevent this kind of basic instinctive response to become the way that we collectively handled those monstrosities, mainly because those punishments will be abused against innocent scapegoats.

Re: Last Statements

#40

Post by sam0x17 »

worthless-trash wrote: post #24
sam0x17 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always felt very alone in my view on this, so don't feel bad if you disagree with me because most people probably do, but I just feel super morally icky when I hear about how part of our justice system is built around "retribution" / "vindication". Like it is one thing to punish, it is quite another to allow others to derive some sort of satisfaction from that punishment, even if they were victims, I just find i…

I think this thought process is something that only people who have never been wronged can afford. There comes a time in life where the punishment must fit the crime, even if its only to make an example of the criminal. Life is hard enough, we should deter crimes at every possibility, people are rarely punished for every evil they commit.

See this is my point though, it shouldn't matter what has happened to you, if that matters, then this is 100% emotional and not based on reason or justice.
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