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Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

theatlantic.com

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#31
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to the OP, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; we are yet to observe anything in the natural world where "something magical [really turned out to be] going on", so this really is an extraordinary claim. It has been several years since I was current with the linguistics literature, but as far as I know no extraordinary evidence has been produced. I don't think that requires that we v…

I did not reference linguistics literature, but philosophy literature (a distinction worth making because they are approaching the problem at different levels). I've never been good at the 'language problem' elevator speech, but how is it possible that we can capture the full power of language while using language to describe it? Language is a technology that allows for the production of concepts like 'probability' o…

You're asking if I believe in qualia, and the answer is no. There are firing neurons and that's it. The great variety of ways in which neurons can fire, and the great variety of experiences that shape how neurons fire combine to form an exquisite set of possible firing patterns (this is literally what makes me me and you you) but ultimately, to mis-use Gertrude Stein's famous phrase, 'there is no there there.'

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#33
post #27

Like many things, Chomsky is both right and wrong. He's right in that if we studied the structure and functioning of the brain we could built more accurate AI. He's terribly wrong because the structures of the brain are fuzzy and give rise to probabilistic and 'statistical' functioning that is itself based on training (much like the models he derides).

How are brain structures fuzzy?

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#34
post #4

I haven't finished reading TFA yet, but so far it's really good, because it sounds like Chomsky is actually getting to the point.... which he sometimes does, and sometimes absolutely doesn't (or so it often seems to me). If you're interested in this area, which you might call the philosophy of artificial mind, or philosophy of cognitive science, I strongly suggest reading the link to Norvig's article (linked in TFA,…

I don't see any mysticism in Chomsky's approach. You seem to agree with Norvig that doing massive data analysis on language will come to a scientific understanding, which would be a first in science. Chomsky doesn't. If anything, Chomsky is grounded in reality, and Norvig and AI researchers are grounded in hope that this way of mapping out something will create meaningful understanding of the system.

This reminds me a bit of what scientists in other fields refer to as "empirical equations", which are equations fit from data without any particular theoretical backing or reason to believe that their components are a good model of reality. They're useful in that they may predict observations well, especially over a specific range of observables, but they don't necessarily give us an understanding of what's going on. An example is the historical Prony equation for hydraulic pressure loss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prony_equation), which doesn't actually correctly model what happens in fluid flow, but does happen to empirically produce fairly good results over a range of values, partly through the use of two magic numbers fit from data.

Another example might be the winning entry in the Netflix competition. If your goal is to predict film preferences (which is Netflix's goal, of course), it appears to give pretty good estimates. But I don't think even its authors would claim that it's a a scientific model of how humans form preferences.

In both cases the underlying problem is that there are fairly general functional forms, such as a few terms of a Taylor series, or a forest of decision trees, that can empirically model almost anything to a certain degree of accuracy, given enough data, even if the underlying process looks nothing like them. Therefore they can give accurate predictions that work in practice, without being accurate models of what's happening in the underlying system. Chomsky appears to be of the opinion that statistical NLP systems are more of that variety, so may be good engineering solutions without being good scientific models.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#35
post #6

The "right" way is to take endless numbers of videotapes of what's happening outside the video, and feed them into the biggest and fastest computer, gigabytes of data, and do complex statistical analysis -- you know, Bayesian this and that -- and you'll get some kind of prediction about what's gonna happen outside the window next. In fact, you get a much better prediction than the physics department will ever give. W…

Chomsky is agreeing that it's making a map. He just doesn't think that map is very useful on a scientific level, but is useful on an engineering level. You're responding that he's wrong, because it's useful on an engineering level. Right? I'm reading many comments here and they seem to keep boiling down to this notion. Am I wrong?

At the top level, I think this captures it.

If, like Chomsky, you value having a model of the underlying cognition process rather than a set of black-box predictors for aspects of that problem (e.g., various corpus-driven translators), then you might be really annoyed that the black-box people are so satisfied with their results.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any mysticism in Chomsky's approach. You seem to agree with Norvig that doing massive data analysis on language will come to a scientific understanding, which would be a first in science. Chomsky doesn't. If anything, Chomsky is grounded in reality, and Norvig and AI researchers are grounded in hope that this way of mapping out something will create meaningful understanding of the system.

This reminds me a bit of what scientists in other fields refer to as "empirical equations", which are equations fit from data without any particular theoretical backing or reason to believe that their components are a good model of reality. They're useful in that they may predict observations well, especially over a specific range of observables, but they don't necessarily give us an understanding of what's going on.…

Exactly. Well said, and clearly articulates the point here.

What I don't get is, what Chomsky is saying is all together the standard, and yet people are insulting him for what is all together a very simple idea you expressed plainly.

Yes, NLP systems are going to have many engineering uses, and Chomsky agrees. Are they going to help in the true scientific understanding of the systems?

It's unlikely. It's likely to be "good engineering solutions without being good scientific models" as you elegantly put it.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#37
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language ? It certainly makes me doubt language (the technology of it) as purely cultural and learned.

Language is a set of behaviors Behavior for humans and other animals requires a brain and body (almost always) The organisation, growth, and function of the brain and body are influenced by genetics. So we can say first and formost that language is influenced by genetics. Having a tongue, vocal chords, hands, ears. These all help to acquire language. So now the question is to what degree does genetics influence langu…

If I understand your point correctly, Chomsky does explain this, even in the article. Like with his discussion of "linear order".

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#38
post #17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you approach Heidegger's or Derrida's arguments that 'language is complicated, something magical must be going on'? Will you allow for no qualitatively different meaning to language than probabilistic associations of sounds with objects?

What could 'meaning' possibly be other than probabilistic associations of sounds and concepts?

Your observation is so vague and general to the point of being rather meaningless. Almost every physical theory is described by an underlying mapping between inputs.

The interesting point is the expression power of your model. : to take an example I am somehow familiar with, current large vocabulary speech recognizers have millions of parameters. They work relatively well, but they are very difficult to interpret, and it is hard to see how they help us understanding how speech recognition actually works in our brain.

To make a somehow flawed analogy, every Turing complete language is equivalent, but getting the machine code of a very large project is not very interesting if you want to understand it, while it is mostly enough if you just want to use it.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#39
While I respect (some of Chomsky's work) it is amazing to me that he thinks language is something more than mathematics/statistics. Language is math, it is basically an advanced form of discreet mathematics. We can reproduce virtually anything on a computer, and it is no more "shallow" than artificial light from a lightbulb is "artificial." There is no magic going on, we are biological computers, walking number crunchers. Our brains just happen to operate with chemicals and analog signals, rather than transistors and digital signals. His view on this carries the drawbacks of academia, which has a tendency to over-complicate and over-formalize thinking.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#40
Noam Chomsky irritates me here's why - he's vague, so astonishingly vague that he can hide his uselessness within it.

> Chomsky derided researchers in machine learning who use purely statistical methods to produce behavior that mimics something in the world, but who don’t try to understand the meaning of that behavior. Chomsky compared such researchers to scientists who might study the dance made by a bee returning to the hive, and who could produce a statistically based simulation of such a dance without attempting to understand why the bee behaved that way.

-- http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/norvig-vs-chomsky-and-the-f...

What does that even mean?

> But the number of parameters in his theory continued to multiply, never quite catching up to the number of exceptions, until it was no longer clear that Chomsky’s theories were elegant anymore. In fact, one could argue that the state of Chomskyan linguistics is like the state of astronomy circa Copernicus: it wasn’t that the geocentric model didn’t work, but the theory required so many additional orbits-within-orbits that people were finally willing to accept a different way of doing things. AI endeavored for a long time to work with elegant logical representations of language, and it just proved impossible to enumerate all the rules, or pretend that humans consistently followed them. Norvig points out that basically all successful language-related AI programs now use statistical reasoning

> But his fundamental stance, which he calls the “algorithmic modeling culture,” is to believe that “nature’s black box cannot necessarily be described by a simple model.” He likens Chomsky’s quest for a more beautiful model to Platonic mysticism, and he compares Chomsky to Bill O’Reilly in his lack of satisfaction with answers that work. “Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that,” O’Reilly once said, apparently unsatisfied with physics as an explanation for anything.

-- http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/norvig-vs-chomsky-and-the-f...

AI went wrong when Chomsky came around with his rule based translation ideas that were hideously wrong and probably set us back 20 years - see here:

http://norvig.com/chomsky.html

He's a more irritating linguistic version of Richard Dawkins (who doesn't have an active research career).

> Every time I fire a linguist, the performance of the speech recognizer goes up

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Jelinek

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