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Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

poetryfoundation.org

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Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#31

Post by minihoster »

jongjong wrote: post #11

You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something but your country isn't the best thing to die for. The problem with your country (at least the vast majority of countries) is that it doesn't care about you. It's just too big to care. It has almost nothing to do with you. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that people feel some affiliation with their country. For the vast majority of people, the…

I think you underestimate just how well national pride works on people. It's an amazing proposition - you get to identify with the struggles and achievements of millions of people over decades just by being born in some spot. This can be useful/motivating in moderation, but it's obvious how dangerously easy it is to abuse by nationalists. Russians rather feel mighty dying in a pointless war than admitting they will never be a superpower. Americans would rather reminisce about the 1950s than doing anything to fix the many ways we've stagnated. Humans are willing to accept a lot of suffering instead of feeling humiliated.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#32

Post by jongjong »

minihoster wrote: post #31
jongjong wrote: post #11

You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something but your country isn't the best thing to die for. The problem with your country (at least the vast majority of countries) is that it doesn't care about you. It's just too big to care. It has almost nothing to do with you. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that people feel some affiliation with their country. For the vast majority of people, the…

I think you underestimate just how well national pride works on people. It's an amazing proposition - you get to identify with the struggles and achievements of millions of people over decades just by being born in some spot. This can be useful/motivating in moderation, but it's obvious how dangerously easy it is to abuse by nationalists. Russians rather feel mighty dying in a pointless war than admitting they will n…

Good point. Meanwhile you can often lead a good life if you're willing to forego status and try to be objective about your accomplishments. Let others believe what fantasies they want. It's always a fantasy anyway.

Everyone is clutching onto narratives and blind-spots.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#33

Post by beloch »

The ceremony, pomp and reverence we pay to soldiers and the fallen are all aimed at making sure the young remain willing to do an ugly job at affordable prices. For every poem like this there is a parade, monument, wreath-laying ceremony, or the modern equivalent of young girls handing white feathers to young boys.

It seems ungrateful to view it this way. We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we live in. It seems like we should owe them respect. However, we need to recognize that this kind of respect, while indeed owed, is also sometimes abused by politicians to field armies at affordable prices in the service of their own greed and vanity.

If, "War is the continuation of politics by other means", then we must demand better policy from our politicians than what we're seeing today.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#34

Post by KnuthIsGod »

Powerful poem.

I studied it in school as did my children at their school, decades later.

They also studied the Caesar' savage Gallic Wars ( in English and in Latin ) and Thucydides History of the Peloponsesian War.

Thucydides is essential reading these days.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/opinion/america-china-tru...

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#36

Post by nullorempty »

I much prefer "Imagine" by Beatles.

Imagine they call a war but no one shows up.

Young people are especially vulnerable to brainwashing. Do everything you can to explain to them that they will dying to protect the powerful elite.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#37

Post by nullorempty »

KnuthIsGod wrote: post #34

Powerful poem. I studied it in school as did my children at their school, decades later. They also studied the Caesar' savage Gallic Wars ( in English and in Latin ) and Thucydides History of the Peloponsesian War. Thucydides is essential reading these days. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/opinion/america-china-tru...

There is a reason they put that into curriculum.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#39

Post by trhway »

beloch wrote: post #33

The ceremony, pomp and reverence we pay to soldiers and the fallen are all aimed at making sure the young remain willing to do an ugly job at affordable prices. For every poem like this there is a parade, monument, wreath-laying ceremony, or the modern equivalent of young girls handing white feathers to young boys. It seems ungrateful to view it this way. We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we l…

>sometimes abused by politicians to field armies at affordable prices in the service of their own greed and vanity.

After Khamenei death Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement that Russia is "against killing of the leaders of sovereign countries". Somehow they didn't mention nor regular citizens nor rank-and-file soldiers of sovereign countries.

In the Spanish series "El Cid" there is a nice depiction of how a battle and the whole war immediately ends once the king of one side is killed in that battle. Everybody just went back to their regular business.

A translation of saying in Russian, not sure whether it exists in English - "One's heroism is always a result of incompetency and idiotism of somebody else."

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