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Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

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Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#31
post #8
post #6

anyone got a non paywalled/subscription version?

https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/gemini-ai-wrongful-death-lawsuit... is the Gift Article link. This was what I submitted, but the query params got stripped.

Thanks it didn't work with archive.is/org for me either

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#32
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how the Turing Test was pretty widely accepted as a way to evaluate machine intelligence, and then quietly abandoned pretty much instantly once machines were able to pass it. I don't even necessarily think that was incorrect, but it's interesting how rapidly views changed. Dijkstra said, "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can…

As far as I know, we haven't done any proper Turing Tests for LLMs. And if we did, they would surely fail them.

"Proper" may be doing some work here, but such a test was run last year and GPT-4.5 and LLaMa-3.1-405B both passed. Oddly, GPT-4.5 was judged as human significantly more often than chance. https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.23674

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#33
post #26

Notable features of this case: - Documented record of a months-long set of conversations between the man and the chatbot - Seemingly, no previous history of mental illness - The absolutely crazy things the AI encouraged him to do, including trying to kidnap a robot body for the AI - Eventually encouraging (or at the very least going along with) his plans to kill himself.

Yeah this seems as clear cut a case as you could want. That doesn't automatically mean Google is going to get held liable but if any case would result in it this one will.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#34

I have had conversations where the bot started with a firm opinion but reversed in a prompt or two, always toward my point of view. So I asked it if the sycophancy is inherent in the design, or if it just comes from the RLHF. It claimed that it's all about the RLHF, and that the sycophancy is a business decision that is a compromise of a variety of forces. Is that right? It would at least mean that this is technicall…

I don’t think it is. The thing that needs to be kept in mind is that at the end of the day the basic building block of the AI systems is a fancy autocomplete. And I’m not saying this to somehow diminish it. It just means that it’s going to produce the statistically most likely continuation to a given source text. So if you keep pressing on with your point of view, it gets more and more likely for the statistically likely conversation to start agreeing with you. Unless there’s something in the context window that makes you obviously wrong.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

Just stuff anyone with mental illness into an institution. That worked out so well last time. Or maybe make healthcare affordable and accessible. That seems like a way more obvious detriment to negative outcomes. I broadly agree with you, but your views on mental illness are not good.

The core problem is that a not-insignificant number of mentally ill people are absolutely convinced that they are totally fine and sane, and legally you cannot force an adult into treatment.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#36
post #26

Notable features of this case: - Documented record of a months-long set of conversations between the man and the chatbot - Seemingly, no previous history of mental illness - The absolutely crazy things the AI encouraged him to do, including trying to kidnap a robot body for the AI - Eventually encouraging (or at the very least going along with) his plans to kill himself.

We would need to see the actual chat logs.

Any lawsuit you read, written by the plaintiff's attorneys, will be written with a tabloid level of sensationalism, cherry-picking, and "telling you how to feel". This is requested to be a jury trial, so on some level the game is "would you rather settle out of court (where hundreds of thousands are grains of sand on Google's level), or have a jury read our tabloid and decide while you, the faceless megacorporation, try to swim uphill against it."

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#37
post #26

Notable features of this case: - Documented record of a months-long set of conversations between the man and the chatbot - Seemingly, no previous history of mental illness - The absolutely crazy things the AI encouraged him to do, including trying to kidnap a robot body for the AI - Eventually encouraging (or at the very least going along with) his plans to kill himself.

Charles Manson never actually killed anyone. Why can't AI be held accountable for the same reasons?

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#38

I think it’s already time for us to stop calling these things "intelligent" or using the word intelligence when referring to LLMs. These tools are very dangerous for people who are mentally fragile.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

> If he'd used Bic pens to write his plans for mass shootings, should Bic be held responsible?

I think the scale of the assistance is important. If his Bic pen was encouraging him to mass murder people, then Bic should absolutely be held accountable.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try to avoid calling LLMs intelligent when unnecessary, but it runs into the fundamental problem that they are intelligent by any common-sense definition of the term. The only way to defend the thesis that they aren't is to retreat to esoteric post-2022 definitions of intelligence, which take into account this new phenomenon of a machine that can engage in medium-quality discussions on any topic under the sun but c…

It's interesting how the Turing Test was pretty widely accepted as a way to evaluate machine intelligence, and then quietly abandoned pretty much instantly once machines were able to pass it. I don't even necessarily think that was incorrect, but it's interesting how rapidly views changed. Dijkstra said, "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can…

Basically the only reasonably proposed Turing test is the one defined in the Kurzweil-Kapor wager[0] which has never been attempted.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test#Kurzweil%E2%80%93K...

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try to avoid calling LLMs intelligent when unnecessary, but it runs into the fundamental problem that they are intelligent by any common-sense definition of the term. The only way to defend the thesis that they aren't is to retreat to esoteric post-2022 definitions of intelligence, which take into account this new phenomenon of a machine that can engage in medium-quality discussions on any topic under the sun but c…

It's interesting how the Turing Test was pretty widely accepted as a way to evaluate machine intelligence, and then quietly abandoned pretty much instantly once machines were able to pass it. I don't even necessarily think that was incorrect, but it's interesting how rapidly views changed. Dijkstra said, "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can…

We will never prove AI is intelligent.

We will only prove humans aren't.

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