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Data does not speak to you

tantaman.com

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Re: Data does not speak to you

#31

Post by Kim_Bruning »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #29

Tantaman's work is a very interesting block of research on why one group buys into the demographic transition more than some others. I think it's an interesting angle. On interpreting data, seems like they're coming at LessWrong from a different angle? Bayes? Scientific Method? [1] A bit more detail: Demographic transition has been an explicit policy goal for decades. I imagine most moderate+ people have bought into…

Reading further, I might be being too charitable.

Demographics are under government control, at very least at the dP/dt level. Much of the causality should be sought there.

Contraception, abortion access, immigration policy, tax incentives, childcare subsidies, parental leave, housing policy, education funding, propaganda. The levers are endless.

Until recently most governments were simply trying to level off their population. They may have succeeded a bit too well, but that's another story.

Somehow -in their essays so far- Tantaman has left out government policy almost entirely, which is a big elephant in the room to miss.

Re: Data does not speak to you

#32

Post by LoganDark »

lynx97 wrote: post #8
LoganDark wrote: post #2

I wouldn't have offspring because I don't want to have anyone be born into this world; it's awful. On the other paw, I would adopt if it could help someone already having to exist in this world to lead their best life.

You're reeking of "positivity", please do not adopt a child.

I don't seek to adopt a child, and I probably never would. But I did meet someone who needs my help and I do intend to help them live their best life. I am not sure what "positivity" you mean, but if you mean toxic positivity, that couldn't be further from the truth. (I am closer to covert narcissist)

Re: Data does not speak to you

#33

Post by LoganDark »

abcde666777 wrote: post #7
LoganDark wrote: post #2

I wouldn't have offspring because I don't want to have anyone be born into this world; it's awful. On the other paw, I would adopt if it could help someone already having to exist in this world to lead their best life.

Birth is as inevitable as existence, there is no opt out in the grander metaphysical scheme of things. Also just a thought - is that really your reason for not having them? If a person truly believes the bad outweighs the good I'm less inclined to believe them when they're still among the living, because the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. Personally I'm clear on w…

> Birth is as inevitable as existence, there is no opt out in the grander metaphysical scheme of things.

I can opt not to assist in one myself. That's not me having anything against birth or trying to do anything in the grander scheme of things, it's just my choice.

> Also just a thought - is that really your reason for not having them? If a person truly believes the bad outweighs the good I'm less inclined to believe them when they're still among the living, because the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive.

I'm broken and mentally ill, so part of the reason I'm still among the living is because I'm conditioned to crave the pain and suffering. There is much good, and it may even outweigh the bad, and I'm still optimistic where I can be, so I'm not suicidal, but I use this existence in ways I wouldn't recommend, and couldn't condone.

Basically, I wouldn't want to stick someone with it; I wouldn't want to put them in the world that created it. Even if many of my inciting events were unique to me, there is so much in the world right now that I just, don't know if my best would be able to prevent that suffering...

On the other paw, when someone is already stuck with it, and already suffering, that's less of a dilemma for me, especially when their situation is so bad that I couldn't possibly count the number of ways I can make for better...

Re: Data does not speak to you

#34

Post by LoganDark »

dns_snek wrote: post #12
abcde666777 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birth is as inevitable as existence, there is no opt out in the grander metaphysical scheme of things. Also just a thought - is that really your reason for not having them? If a person truly believes the bad outweighs the good I'm less inclined to believe them when they're still among the living, because the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. Personally I'm clear on w…

> the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. Eh, you don't choose to live any more than you choose to breathe. Even if you don't want to live anymore you can't simply "choose" to no longer be alive. There's no suicide-fairy that neatly and quietly removes you from existence on command, and that would keep taking care of anyone who's depending on you.

There are some countries where assisted suicide is legal, if you can afford to make it there, and can make the case that it's truly what you want and believe is right for you. But, as you've noted, that doesn't take care of dependents unless they join you... Not that it can matter to you after your end, but in many cases, the emotional weight of what one's loss could do to others can indeed discourage them from going through with it.

Re: Data does not speak to you

#35

Post by LoganDark »

nxpnsv wrote: post #5
LoganDark wrote: post #2

I wouldn't have offspring because I don't want to have anyone be born into this world; it's awful. On the other paw, I would adopt if it could help someone already having to exist in this world to lead their best life.

But then the next generation is all made of the people who turned this world awful. What about being the change you want? I guess if you gave an orphan a good life, that would count though.

I'm not cut out for the change I want. I just wish I could take a break from everything, and come back once it's better.

(Semi-)Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/989/

Re: Data does not speak to you

#36

Post by eigencoder »

card_zero wrote: post #9

You don't declare your position on this issue, which irritating. What do you actually think is good or bad? It seems like you're anti-individual, pro-religion (or "telos", but that always seems to be a subset of some religion whenever you mention it), and pro-reproduction, but only as a side effect of the religion. You don't want us to be coerced, or coerced into approving of pressure to conform, but you want us to c…

I think "formation" is essentially a short-hand for "character formation"; I've seen the term used that way in Christian education literature and worldview studies.

Re: Data does not speak to you

#37

Post by eigencoder »

card_zero wrote: post #25
xannabxlle wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's how you perceive child-rearing property of communities that's a shame. It takes a village to raise a child. As the african proverb goes the child that doesn't feel warmth will burn a village down to feel it.

The creepy thing is that warm community turns into individuality bad which turns into obedience.

Why is obedience bad?

Re: Data does not speak to you

#38

Post by nxpnsv »

LoganDark wrote: post #35
nxpnsv wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then the next generation is all made of the people who turned this world awful. What about being the change you want? I guess if you gave an orphan a good life, that would count though.

I'm not cut out for the change I want. I just wish I could take a break from everything, and come back once it's better. (Semi-)Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/989/

A break would be nice :)
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