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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#31

Post by condiment »

We are missing accessible cryptographic infrastructure for human identity verification.

For age verification specifically, the only information that services need proof of is that the users age is above a certain threshold. i.e. that the user is 14 years or older. But in order to make this determination, we see services asking for government ID (which many 14-year-olds do not have), or for invasive face scans. These methods provide far more data than necessary.

What the service needs to "prove" in this case is three things:

1. that the user meets the age predicate

2. that the identity used to meet the age predicate is validated by some authority

3. that the identity is not being reused across many accounts

All the technologies exist for this, we just haven't put them together usefully. Zero knowledge proofs, like Groth16 or STARKs allow for statements about data to be validated externally without revealing the data itself. These are difficult for engineers to use, let alone consumers. Big opportunity for someone to build an authority here.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#33

Post by notTooFarGone »

Aerroon wrote: post #27
notTooFarGone wrote: post #8

>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…

It costs money. Getting an ID here costs about 5% of minimum wage if you order it online + travel (you still have to travel there for the photos and pickup). It costs even more if you apply in person. You could buy 19 gallons of milk for that money (80 liters).

So do you buy an ID every month or can we depreciate that over 15 years?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#34

Post by bondarchuk »

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#35

Post by meowface »

infotainment wrote: post #23
meowface wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What problem? I don't think internet websites and apps actually need to know the face, age, or name of their users if their users don't want to provide that information. With exceptions for things like gambling websites.

Why should gambling be the exception? One could argue other app-based vices are just as bad, if not worse.

Crippling debt from unwise impulsive gambling by a teenager is probably worse than whatever occurs from a teenager scrolling Twitter all day.

The latter may not be great, but eating potato chips all day also probably isn't, and I don't think the government should outlaw minors eating potato chips. Plus it's variable: some get positive, educational, pro-social, productive outcomes from social media and some don't. Gambling is always bad in the limit.

A simple rule could probably be that if a website can make you lose over $200 of real money, it should probably require age verification. I don't see why other things should.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#37

Post by Levitz »

edgyquant wrote: post #7

Everything is a trade off in the world. I think that people who are anti-id ignore this but for me personally it’s harder and harder to accept the trade offs of an internet without id. AI has only accelerated this, I don’t want to live in a world where the average person unknowingly interacts with bots more than other individuals and where black market actors can sway public opinion with armies of bots. I think most…

Astroturfing was already a thing.

Identification fixes nothing here, you log with your account, plug in the AI.

The problems with social media have nothing to do with ID and everything to do with godawful incentives, the argument seems to be that it's a large price to pay but that it's worth it. Worth it for what? The end result is absolutely terrible either way

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#38

Post by [deleted] »

logifail wrote: post #13
notTooFarGone wrote: post #8

>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…

> This is a problem [..] (This is a genuine question) please could you describe the underlying problem that age verification is attempting to solve?

[deleted]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#39

Post by fabian2k »

notTooFarGone wrote: post #8

>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…

I'm not convinced age restrictions like this are a good idea. But yeah, the non-availability of IDs in the US is a self-inflicted problem.

Another example where this plays a role are voter registration and ID requirements for voting in the US. It is entirely bizarre to me how these discussions just accept it as a law of nature that it's expensive and a lot of effort to get an ID. This is something that could be changed.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#40

Post by sidewndr46 »

ck2 wrote: post #3

if you are paying for internet access you have to be over 18, no? and if you have internet access without paying, that means someone else is legally responsible for your access "problem solved" ?

unless your kid never goes to public school that isn't true
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