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We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

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Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#31

Post by formerly_proven »

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #4

There is nothing here that really tells us the turnstile was security theatre? Or the various key card swipes. There are many ways to skin a cat; and there are many ways to ensure authenticated / trusted access. If you have site wide security gates, it means you know everyone on site / on a given floor conforms to a given minimal security or trust level, so now you can conduct operations in that area with more freedo…

Card readers in elevators are theater though. You would need separate vestibules to actually secure entry via elevator. That’s why most buildings have those.

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#32

Post by avidiax »

nine_k wrote: post #29
jez wrote: post #15

As others have mentioned, it comes down to the threat model, but sometimes the threat model itself is uncomfortable to talk about. It’s sad to think about, but in my recollection a lot of intra-building badge readers went up in response to the 2018 active shooter situation at the YouTube HQ[1]. In cases like this, the threat model is “confine a hostile person to a specific part of the building once they’ve gotten in…

If forced partition of a building were the primary goal, that goal could be achieved without badges. Or, at least, without having to badge into every door. Just have locks on every door that are normally disengaged, but which can be locked remotely and promptly. (While at it, I once worked on an access control system. It was aeons ago; the system ran under OS/2. We installed it on a factory. It worked well, until we…

This actually exposes how this type of system is just security theater usually.

A shooter can get a badge. Most partitions aren't bulletproof (and probably don't have security film), and a shooter doesn't fear getting a cut on some tempered glass.

The thing that would be effective is 24/7 security monitoring with a building lockdown and reinforced entrances/partitions. Of course, the victims whose badges were disabled during lockdown will sue.

So instead, just install badge readers and say that "something was done".

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#33

Post by amethyst »

xvedejas wrote: post #21
chihuahua wrote: post #20

Amazon is pretty serious about physical access security. Even back in 2002, you had to scan your badge while a security guard watches, to check if you are the same person as the badge picture. The same guard also checked if your dog was registered (I think my dog got a badge with his picture, although I think that was just for fun, and not functional) And no easy ability to enter through side doors - you couldn't ope…

> they locked all the side doors And this didn't get them in trouble with the fire marshal?

If it's anything like Facebook, the side entrances (which always had guards sitting by them anyways) were all converted to alarmed fire exits. So the fire marshal would still be happy, but it was far less convenient for employees.

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#34

Post by Macha »

jez wrote: post #15

As others have mentioned, it comes down to the threat model, but sometimes the threat model itself is uncomfortable to talk about. It’s sad to think about, but in my recollection a lot of intra-building badge readers went up in response to the 2018 active shooter situation at the YouTube HQ[1]. In cases like this, the threat model is “confine a hostile person to a specific part of the building once they’ve gotten in…

I doubt these card readers would prevent someone leaving the part of their building they’re in, as that’s a lesson written in charred corpses and was a foundational aspect of health and safety becoming a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

In theory it might prevent access to other buildings, but equally often the card readers are around doors of mostly standard glass or near internal windows of the same.

So if that’s the motivation, it doesn’t seem like a particularly effective mitigation

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#35

Post by hughw »

jacquesm wrote: post #26

Funny. We had a security guard that had memorized all the faces of the employees. If he knew you he'd buzz you through. If he didn't know you you'd have to be vouched for by someone that he did know or by showing your credentials. By day #3 he'd know you, and he also somehow knew when you were no longer with the company. There never was a line and there were 1400 people in those buildings. I never realized how incred…

Also... three buildings with 13 storeys? With all the trouble builders go to to avoid 13th floors.

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#36

Post by yannyu »

jez wrote: post #15

As others have mentioned, it comes down to the threat model, but sometimes the threat model itself is uncomfortable to talk about. It’s sad to think about, but in my recollection a lot of intra-building badge readers went up in response to the 2018 active shooter situation at the YouTube HQ[1]. In cases like this, the threat model is “confine a hostile person to a specific part of the building once they’ve gotten in…

If an active shooter is the anticipated threat, how does a turnstile effectively stop that? Many of these turnstiles are specifically meant to allow people through in emergencies, and aren't strong enough to withstand bullets or even a sturdy kick. The elevator restrictions would be a better chokepoint, but as the article noted they didn't turn those back on.

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#37

Post by kuhaku22 »

malfist wrote: post #24
xvedejas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they locked all the side doors And this didn't get them in trouble with the fire marshal?

Amazon employees can just use all the ...water... bottles they keep around their workstation to put out the fires.

> Additionally, the weapon is not limited to offensive use, as it can be used to extinguish afterburn on oneself and teammates

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Jarate

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#38

Post by kuhaku22 »

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #4

There is nothing here that really tells us the turnstile was security theatre? Or the various key card swipes. There are many ways to skin a cat; and there are many ways to ensure authenticated / trusted access. If you have site wide security gates, it means you know everyone on site / on a given floor conforms to a given minimal security or trust level, so now you can conduct operations in that area with more freedo…

> Obviously the implementation was botched in this case

The long wait times could easily have been fixed by staggering employee start times. You could even optimize it per building/floor. Sadly, a lot of bureaucrats lack the imagination to do simple stuff like this. (Anyone with a desperate need to have 9 am meetings would just have to suck it up)

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#39

Post by hinkley »

jez wrote: post #15

As others have mentioned, it comes down to the threat model, but sometimes the threat model itself is uncomfortable to talk about. It’s sad to think about, but in my recollection a lot of intra-building badge readers went up in response to the 2018 active shooter situation at the YouTube HQ[1]. In cases like this, the threat model is “confine a hostile person to a specific part of the building once they’ve gotten in…

No, the model there is something bad happened, we must do something. This is something, so we will do it.

I’m not saying that to diminish the value of the actual solution, but what the people want is literally something to make them feel better about a situation that is mostly out of their control.

Someone showed up to their workplace with a fucking gun. And now they have to go there every day, and hope it doesn’t happen again. They want and need the theater.

Re: We installed a single turnstile to feel secure

#40

Post by PunchyHamster »

hamdingers wrote: post #9

I worked at a company that had effectively no physical security during work hours until the second time someone came in during lunch and stole an armload of laptops. Then we got card readers and a staffed front desk, and discovered our snack budget was too high because people from other companies on other floors were coming to ours for snacks too. I never felt the office was insecure, except in retrospect once it was…

How the fuck nobody notices some randoms coming to steal snacks in the first place ?
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