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Breaking the spell of vibe coding

fast.ai

31–40 of 375 posts

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#31
post #7

I think it all boils down to, which is higher risk, using AI too much, or using AI too little? Right now I see the former as being hugely risky. Hallucinated bugs, coaxed into dead-end architectures, security concerns, not being familiar with the code when a bug shows up in production, less sense of ownership, less hands-on learning, etc. This is true both at the personal level and at the business level. (And astound…

This is basically Pascal’s wager. However, unlike the original Pascal’s wager, yours actually sounds sound.

Another good alike wager I remember is: “What if climate change is a hoax, and we invested in all this clean energy infrastructure for nothing”.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#32
> A study from METR found that when developers used AI tools, they estimated that they were working 20% faster, yet in reality they worked 19% slower. That is nearly a 40% difference between perceived and actual times!

It’s not. It’s either 33% slower than perceived or perception overestimates speed by 50%. I don’t know how to trust the author if stuff like this is wrong.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#33
post #32

> A study from METR found that when developers used AI tools, they estimated that they were working 20% faster, yet in reality they worked 19% slower. That is nearly a 40% difference between perceived and actual times! It’s not. It’s either 33% slower than perceived or perception overestimates speed by 50%. I don’t know how to trust the author if stuff like this is wrong.

Can you elaborate? This seems like a simple mistake if they are incorrect, I'm not sure where 33% or 50% come from here.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#34
post #32

> A study from METR found that when developers used AI tools, they estimated that they were working 20% faster, yet in reality they worked 19% slower. That is nearly a 40% difference between perceived and actual times! It’s not. It’s either 33% slower than perceived or perception overestimates speed by 50%. I don’t know how to trust the author if stuff like this is wrong.

I get caught up personally in this math as well. Is a charitable interpretation of the throwaway line that they were off by that many “percentage points”?

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#35
Speaking just for myself, AI has allowed me to start doing projects that seemed daunting at first, as it automates much of the tedious act of actually typing code from the keyboard, and keeps me at a higher level.

But yes, I usually constrain my plans to one function, or one feature. Too much and it goes haywire.

I think a side benefit is that I think more about the problem itself, rather than the mechanisms of coding.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#36
post #32

> A study from METR found that when developers used AI tools, they estimated that they were working 20% faster, yet in reality they worked 19% slower. That is nearly a 40% difference between perceived and actual times! It’s not. It’s either 33% slower than perceived or perception overestimates speed by 50%. I don’t know how to trust the author if stuff like this is wrong.

Isn't the study a year old by now? Things have evolved very quickly in the last few months.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#37

Speaking just for myself, AI has allowed me to start doing projects that seemed daunting at first, as it automates much of the tedious act of actually typing code from the keyboard, and keeps me at a higher level. But yes, I usually constrain my plans to one function, or one feature. Too much and it goes haywire. I think a side benefit is that I think more about the problem itself, rather than the mechanisms of codin…

Actually, I wonder how they measured the 'speed' of coding, maybe I missed it. But if developers can spend more time thinking about the larger problems, that may be a cause of the slowdown. I guess it remains to be seen if the code quality or feature set improves.

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#38
tl;dr - author cites a study from early 2025 which measured developer speed of “experienced open source developers” to be ~20% slower when supported by AI, while they’ve estimated to be ~20% faster.

Note: the study used sonnet-3.5 and sonnet-3.7; there weren’t any agents, deep research or similar tools available. I’d like to see this study done again with:

1. juniors ans mid-level engineers

2. opus-4.6 high and codex-5.2 xhigh

3. Tasks that require upfront research

4. Tasks that require stakeholder communication, which can be facilitated by AI

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#39
post #3

> However, it is important to ask if you want to stop investing in your own skills because of a speculative prediction made by an AI researcher or tech CEO. I don't think these are exclusive. Almost a year ago, I wrote a blog post about this [0]. I spent the time since then both learning better software design and learning to vibe code. I've worked through Domain-Driven Design Distilled , Domain-Driven Design , Imple…

I'm doing a similar thing. Recently, I got $100 to spend on books. The first two books I got were A Philosophy of Software Design, and Designing Data-Intensive Applications, because I asked myself, out of all the technical and software engineering related books that I might get, given agentic coding works quite well now, what are the most high impact ones?

And it seemed pretty clear to me that they would have to do with the sort of evergreen, software engineering and architecture concepts that you still need a human to design and think through carefully today, because LLMs don't have the judgment and a high-level view for that, not the specific API surface area or syntax, etc., of particular frameworks, libraries, or languages, which LLMs, IDE completion, and online documentation mostly handle.

Especially since well-designed software systems, with deep and narrow module interface, maintainable and scalable architectures, well chosen underlying technologies, clear data flow, and so on, are all things that can vastly increase the effectiveness of an AI coding agent, because they mean that it needs less context to understand things, can reason more locally, etc.

To be clear, this is not about not understanding the paradigms, capabilities, or affordances of the tech stack you choose, either! The next books I plan to get are things like Modern Operating Systems, Data-Oriented Design, Communicating Sequential Processes, and The Go Programming Language, because low level concepts, too, are things you can direct an LLM to optimize, if you give it the algorithm, but which they won't do themselves very well, and are generally also evergreen and not subsumed in the "platform minutea" described above.

Likewise, stretching your brain with new paradigms — actor oriented, Smalltalk OOP, Haskell FP, Clojure FP, Lisp, etc — gives you new ways to conceptualize and express your algorithms and architectures, and to judge and refine the code your LLM produces, and ideas like BDD, PBT, lightweight formal methods (like model checking), etc, all provide direct tools for modeling your domain, specifying behavior, and testing it far better, which then allow you to use agentic coding tools with more safety or confidence (and a better feedback loop for them) — at the limit almost creating a way to program declaratively in executible specifications, and then convert those to code via LLM, and then test the latter against the former!

Re: Breaking the spell of vibe coding

#40
post #8
post #3

> However, it is important to ask if you want to stop investing in your own skills because of a speculative prediction made by an AI researcher or tech CEO. I don't think these are exclusive. Almost a year ago, I wrote a blog post about this [0]. I spent the time since then both learning better software design and learning to vibe code. I've worked through Domain-Driven Design Distilled , Domain-Driven Design , Imple…

I personally found out that knowing how to use ai coding assistants productively is a skill like any other and a) it requires a significant investment of time b) can be quite rewarding to learn just as any other skill c) might be useful now or in the future and d) doesn't negate the usefulness of any other skills acquired on the past nor diminishes the usefulness of learning new skills in the future

Agreed, my experience and code quality with claude code and agentic workflows has dramatically increased since investing in learning how to properly use these tools. Ralph Wiggum based approaches and HumanLayer's agents/commands (in their .claude/) have boosted my productivity the most. https://github.com/snwfdhmp/awesome-ralph https://github.com/humanlayer
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