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Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

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Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#31

Post by atoav »

palata wrote: post #27

I don't think that equating all open source work with volunteering makes sense. Volunteering is defined by its charitable purpose for a public good, not by the specific skill used. Let me try an analogy: A chef who cooks a free meal for a homeless shelter is volunteering. That same chef publishing a recipe online or making a cooking tutorial is sharing knowledge, not volunteering. The act of 'cooking' or 'publishing'…

But the German word for it is "gemeinnützig" which loosely translates to "useful for the commons".

So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that.

So while maybe not all software that is open source also is automatically useful for the commons as it is now the definition is way too narrow. If you write software that helps one of the existing recognized causes it is openns source. If you write an open source photoshop or spend days working on software that keeps the world running you don't. But we need the latter people and supporting the former people makes the world a better place.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#33

Post by thaumasiotes »

system2 wrote: post #23

Many of my friends wouldn't qualify for this. They are either doing it as a hobby or to show the projects as their resume helpers.

Why would that disqualify them? Those are also the reasons that people volunteer in soup kitchens.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#34

Post by palata »

atoav wrote: post #31
palata wrote: post #27

I don't think that equating all open source work with volunteering makes sense. Volunteering is defined by its charitable purpose for a public good, not by the specific skill used. Let me try an analogy: A chef who cooks a free meal for a homeless shelter is volunteering. That same chef publishing a recipe online or making a cooking tutorial is sharing knowledge, not volunteering. The act of 'cooking' or 'publishing'…

But the German word for it is "gemeinnützig" which loosely translates to "useful for the commons". So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that. So while maybe not all software that is open source also is automatically useful for the commons as it is now the definition is way too narrow. If you write software tha…

> So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that.

I'm guessing it doesn't count if you are being helped to help kids or give courses, does it? So not only it depends on what it is, it also depends on how it is done.

Open source in itself is not charitable, and many people get paid to contribute to open source projects.

My point is that I agree that some open source projects can count as volunteering, just like some masonry work. But I wouldn't say that "open source" should count as volunteering, just like for masonry.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#35

Post by em-bee »

palata wrote: post #34
atoav wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the German word for it is "gemeinnützig" which loosely translates to "useful for the commons". So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that. So while maybe not all software that is open source also is automatically useful for the commons as it is now the definition is way too narrow. If you write software tha…

> So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that. I'm guessing it doesn't count if you are being helped to help kids or give courses, does it? So not only it depends on what it is, it also depends on how it is done. Open source in itself is not charitable, and many people get paid to contribute to open source proje…

those who pay others to develop open source (or free software) would be donating to charity. so it is still volunteering, just indirectly.

also the term "gemeinnützig" is about the end result, not how it is produced. FOSS is gemeinnützig, even if the producers are paid.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#36

Post by em-bee »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #20
zeeZ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to tax stuff there's a card you can get in most states, issued by cities/districts based on certain criteria, like doing a certain amount of hours per week of volunteer work, that will give you a discount or free entry to museums, pools, movie theaters, events.. There's listings online of all the institutions and businesses that give a discount.

For this, and for the criminal justice use case, it seems to me that it isn't possible for "work on open source" to receive this kind of formal recognition. Anyone is free to self-certify that they're working on an open-source project headed by, and exclusively contributed to by, themselves. You'd need to formally recognize open-source projects that the German state approves of, on a case-by-case basis. And even then…

the punishment argument makes no sense. it is already a problem if someone volunteers in any capacity and then commits a crime. sometimes community service is not the right punishment.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#37

Post by em-bee »

on_the_train wrote: post #14

It's ok to have a hobby. Not everything needs to be minmaxed to extract the maximum amount of money from the system.

the question is, if we as a society want to encourage activities that are for the benefit of everyone.

a sport maybe a hobby. running a sportsclub is volunteer work. writing code for fun is a hobby, publishing and maintaining it for others should be volunteer work.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#38

Post by palata »

em-bee wrote: post #35
palata wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So also things like helping kids with their homework or giving people courses in your hackerspace, repaircafes, reading with others can fall into that. I'm guessing it doesn't count if you are being helped to help kids or give courses, does it? So not only it depends on what it is, it also depends on how it is done. Open source in itself is not charitable, and many people get paid to contribute to open source proje…

those who pay others to develop open source (or free software) would be donating to charity. so it is still volunteering, just indirectly. also the term "gemeinnützig" is about the end result, not how it is produced. FOSS is gemeinnützig, even if the producers are paid.

> FOSS is gemeinnützig, even if the producers are paid.

That's exactly what I question. Let's say I develop an open source firmware specific to hardware I produce. It's not compatible with anything else, it's my proprietary hardware. The hardware is a tamagotchi (you wouldn't consider a tamagotchi "gemeinnützig", would you?). I use tivoisation, such that nobody can flash a different firmware than the one I write. Still the source code of that firmware is open source.

Is that gemeinnützig?

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#39

Post by rendx »

As a German working with charities, this petition doesn't make any sense/is not specific enough to know what they actually want. There is no such thing as getting an activity recognized as volunteering. You either volunteer for a registered charity, or you don't. Nobody cares what you do for a charity, whether you write code for it or clean the toilets doesn't matter for recognition.

The petition only makes legal sense if it were to ask to extend the set of charitable goals as specified in the Abgabenordnung, but the existing set already allows for FOSS projects as part of e.g. the "national education" category (public code is educative).

And, to be frank, I also don't get the "recognition" part. The tangible benefits of volunteering for a charity are limited; what does it even mean to get recognition for it.

Re: Petition for Recognition of Work on Open-Source as Volunteering in Germany

#40

Post by nephihaha »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #32

I don't know if there is the concept of charity organisation in Germany but I feel this is the sort of thing that ought to be limited to registered charities not to be abused/get out of hand.

Big charities can be some of the worst for it while wee ones struggle to get off the ground with the red tape.
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