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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

lists.linuxfromscratch.org

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#31

Post by mirashii »

procone wrote: post #14
soldoutcold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am looking forward to UnixFromScratch and Year of Unix on the desktop as Linux more and more sells itself out to the overstuffed software virus that is System D.

I know this is a bit tongue in cheek, but the systemd hate is so old and tiresome at this point. I need my systems to work. Not once in my career have I experienced a showstopping issue with systemd. I cannot say the same for sysV.

Equally tiring is the “it works for me so stop complaining” replies, which do nothing to stop the complaints but do increase the probability of arguments. Want the complaint posts to stop? Suggesting that they’re in some way invalid is not the way.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#32

Post by antonyh »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #29
antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

Almost wonder if this kind of thing will be an impetus for GNU Hurd to get more momentum. I saw an update recently that they're now finally properly supporting 64bit and sounds like there's active dev going on there again. It apparently uses SysVInit

I've heard of Hurd, but never felt tempted to try it. That could be an interesting option.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#34

Post by cf100clunk »

molticrystal wrote: post #20
soldoutcold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am looking forward to UnixFromScratch and Year of Unix on the desktop as Linux more and more sells itself out to the overstuffed software virus that is System D.

While I'll ignore the System D hyperbole, your point about Unix has merit. I think the *BSD are also good, at least from an educational standpoint, with their relative simplicity and low system requirements. Since there is a lot of integration making a from scratch distro might take less material, but it could be supplemented with more in depth/sysadmin exploration.

From an education standpoint for those who really, really want to understand, the *BSD init and SysVinit systems require direct human administration. You break it, you fix it. Then, and only then, does learning systemd's ''then something happens behind the curtain'' type of automation make sense. If the student decides that one is more suitable than the other(s), they've done so from an enlightened vantage point.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#36

Post by raggi »

cf100clunk wrote: post #2

This is a mindblower. To quote Bruce Dubbs: ''As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. Yes, systemd provides a lot of capabilities, but we will be losing some things I consider impor…

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/tree/main/src/core doesn't look like 1678 C files to me.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#37

Post by cf100clunk »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #29
antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

Almost wonder if this kind of thing will be an impetus for GNU Hurd to get more momentum. I saw an update recently that they're now finally properly supporting 64bit and sounds like there's active dev going on there again. It apparently uses SysVInit

Others have been reminding us of the *BSD init systems, and I remind that SysVinit is not going away from Linux while projects like Devuan and others continue. GNU Hurd is another other-than-systemd learning opportunity.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#38

Post by lagniappe »

procone wrote: post #14
soldoutcold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am looking forward to UnixFromScratch and Year of Unix on the desktop as Linux more and more sells itself out to the overstuffed software virus that is System D.

I know this is a bit tongue in cheek, but the systemd hate is so old and tiresome at this point. I need my systems to work. Not once in my career have I experienced a showstopping issue with systemd. I cannot say the same for sysV.

Imagine that, people on the internet disagreeing. I've had both sysv and sysd crap in my cheerios. The thing I appreciated about sysv was that it stayed in its lane and didn't want to keep branching out into new parts of the system. Sysvinit never proposed something like homed.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#39

Post by cf100clunk »

raggi wrote: post #36
cf100clunk wrote: post #2

This is a mindblower. To quote Bruce Dubbs: ''As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. Yes, systemd provides a lot of capabilities, but we will be losing some things I consider impor…

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/tree/main/src/core doesn't look like 1678 C files to me.

In what way was Bruce incorrect, your one link excepted?

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#40

Post by tokyobreakfast »

antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

I wonder if the impetus behind the (terrible) monolithic design of systemd was to force standardization across distros. The choice was more political than technical.

If different choices were available for init, DNS resolver, service control manager, volume manager, etc... we would adversely contribute to the schizo distro landscape the people holding the money bags are actively trying to get away from.

With systemd it's an all-or-nothing deal. You get the good with the bad, but all distros shit the bed in the same, deterministic way.

Not even Windows does this. There is no "systemd" equivalent. Yes, Windows ships as a single OS—as do the BSDs—but all the components were developed separately.

If all they wanted was a service control manager, there were many (better) options already in existence they could have used.

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