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Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#31

Post by Y-bar »

mschuster91 wrote: post #22
short_sells_poo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just realized something: doesn't this allow the actual drivers to escape the non-monetary penalties? In the UK, if a driver is caught speeding, they'll (generally) also get points on their license and after accumulating 12 points, they'll (generally) lose their license for a while. Points decay on some frequency which I forget. Anyway, what's to stop someone from driving a company car and then just paying the fines…

> Anyway, what's to stop someone from driving a company car and then just paying the fines via the company and refusing the name the driver? In Germany when that happens and the company cannot (or does not want to) name the driver... they may get ordered by the authority to keep a logbook. And such an order shows up at any police checkpoint - and if the cops run the plate, they will ask for the logbook. And check the…

Germany isn’t required to keep a log book? In Netherlands we had to keep details on clock, distance, driver, and reason for all use of the company vehicles.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#32

Post by pjc50 »

philwelch wrote: post #16
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I avoid speeding issues by the one weird trick of not speeding.

Besides, money is a big factor here. If you want to make it cost-effective for someone to physically flag down speeders and ticket them, you'll have to raise the ticket fines significantly. And (sensibly) the revenue goes to HMT and not the individual police forces, avoiding America's perverse incentives, so you'd have to raise the police budget as a separate line item.

(pursuing speeders is right out - police chases are extremely discouraged for obvious safety reasons)

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#34

Post by jen20 »

sensecall wrote: post #30
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

That is indeed ludicrous - I bet the same does not apply to your returned information either.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#35

Post by pjc50 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
mercanlIl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

Except that this: > automated enforcement of minor driving infractions Would not have prevented this: > someone speeding through a red light It's the think-of-the-children fallacy

It wouldn't prevent it, strictly, but proper enforcement would stop people from getting into the habit of driving that badly.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#36

Post by jen20 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
mercanlIl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

Except that this: > automated enforcement of minor driving infractions Would not have prevented this: > someone speeding through a red light It's the think-of-the-children fallacy

Except, it does. People worried about getting a fine will not chance a light on yellow. This is patently obvious for anyone that has ever driven in London (where I learned to drive).

Anyone that doesn't care about the fine (perhaps in a stolen car) may still do it, but they'd do it regardless.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#37

Post by circuit10 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
mercanlIl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

Except that this: > automated enforcement of minor driving infractions Would not have prevented this: > someone speeding through a red light It's the think-of-the-children fallacy

Surely less people will do that if they get fined for it?

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#38

Post by doublerabbit »

sensecall wrote: post #30
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

My father worked on the early 90's contract that implemented the speed camera's on the motorway. The future road map was to make these digitally automated. Dark Fibre was laid but the plans were scrapped as the government saw it as a waste of money. This is why we are stuck with the ludicrous system.

For a long while if you were changing lanes while speeding through the camera it couldn't capture the plate. Again the government didn't care. Of course now resolved with the archaic future technology we have now.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#39

Post by jen20 »

Stevvo wrote: post #18

"Almost 4,000 defendants have been convicted in courts in England and Wales in the last two weeks for failing to identify the driver of a vehicle under police investigation, leading to fines ranging from £1 to £1,000." "Tesla has been convicted at least 18 times" So, Tesla are 1 of 4000. I feel the article is missing a bigger story here to make it about Tesla.

The difference is (presumably) that they are the only auto finance company doing this and therefore should have a more rigorous standard applied than the individuals who make up the remaining 3982 cases.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#40

Post by josephcsible »

pjc50 wrote: post #32
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I avoid speeding issues by the one weird trick of not speeding. Besides, money is a big factor here. If you want to make it cost-effective for someone to physically flag down speeders and ticket them, you'll have to raise the ticket fines significantly. And (sensibly) the revenue goes to HMT and not the individual police forces, avoiding America's perverse incentives, so you'd have to raise the police budget as a sep…

You can't avoid tickets from speed cameras just by not speeding. You can't even avoid them just by not driving! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY38N4vnhzI

And besides, as other commenters pointed out, even if things get lost in the mail or the government otherwise drops the ball, they'll still consider that your fault.

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