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The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

weirdmedievalguys.substack.com

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Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#31

Post by areoform »

A lot of folks are latching on to the "hiding place" theory, and that could very well might have been one of the use cases. But as the article points out, the lack of a second exit makes that unlikely.

I would like to offer a competing theory. These are thermally stable storage places for perishables.

As heat transfer is directly proportional to surface area, the ideal vessel that maximizes the volume / surface area ratio would be a sphere (like some cryogenic tanks for rockets). But if you don't have the technology to make that or a cylinder, then the best you can do is observe that lowering surface area helps and make smaller, long rounded passages to try and optimize a ratio that you don't understand by feel.

I think it's more likely that these are are ancient fridges / hot boxes than a way to spiritually experience rebirth. I think a thousand places to store hay for horses and cheese for your family is far more likely.

Could these be boltholes? Yes, but how frequently were places getting invaded? War was mostly siege based and was fairly infrequent for a given city / place (i.e. even if the polity next door was under siege at the time. You weren't) Winter and summer - on the other hand - were and are yearly guarantees.

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#32

Post by wrenky »

areoform wrote: post #31

A lot of folks are latching on to the "hiding place" theory, and that could very well might have been one of the use cases. But as the article points out, the lack of a second exit makes that unlikely. I would like to offer a competing theory. These are thermally stable storage places for perishables. As heat transfer is directly proportional to surface area, the ideal vessel that maximizes the volume / surface area…

The problem there is why they have such tight bottlenecks periodically- Why not just have a traditional cellar?

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#33

Post by areoform »

wrenky wrote: post #32
areoform wrote: post #31

A lot of folks are latching on to the "hiding place" theory, and that could very well might have been one of the use cases. But as the article points out, the lack of a second exit makes that unlikely. I would like to offer a competing theory. These are thermally stable storage places for perishables. As heat transfer is directly proportional to surface area, the ideal vessel that maximizes the volume / surface area…

The problem there is why they have such tight bottlenecks periodically- Why not just have a traditional cellar?

Great question!

Perhaps. Perhaps that was one of the use cases, but the inconsistent diameter could also be the result of them being bad at digging tunnels. Digging tunnels by hand is hard (and - dare I say - scary).

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#35

Post by araes »

alwa wrote: post #23
crazygringo wrote: post #3

Based on just this article, it seems far most likely to me that it was a place to hide during an attack. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones. Though they could have provided refuge for a small family, why would they…

Indeed: that would help reconcile the presumed secrecy with the fact that, also per the article, there are upwards of 2000 of these tunnel-structures that fall into this category. All across Central Europe. Aggressor knows THAT there's likely a safe-tunnel, but doesn't know exactly WHERE the safe-tunnel is, and whether it's worth taking the time to find... For that matter—A place to stash the kids from the census-tak…

Tax collector avoidance is actually a pretty excellent alternative proposal. From searching, it looks like a lot of the taxes were on stuff that was difficult to hide, like farm animals owned, and houses / farmland.

However, this site [1] shows several categories for taxation that might be hidden to falsify the taxation basis. Cash, Inventories, Household Goods, Luxury Clothing. Admittedly, it seems like there would be a greater percentage of items left behind in some of these locations, since there often tend to be something. Yet, for taxation avoidance purposes, maybe they're very motivated to recollect everything that was hidden.

[1] https://ehs.org.uk/taxation-and-wealth-inequality-in-the-ger...

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#36

Post by sleepyguy »

crazygringo wrote: post #3

Based on just this article, it seems far most likely to me that it was a place to hide during an attack. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones. Though they could have provided refuge for a small family, why would they…

Most likely for woman and children to hide as a last resort, the men would be tasked with defense. Hence the size of the tunnels and the narrow connections. The fact there was nothing found in them could mean they were never needed and not used

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#38

Post by tzs »

areoform wrote: post #33
wrenky wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is why they have such tight bottlenecks periodically- Why not just have a traditional cellar?

Great question! Perhaps. Perhaps that was one of the use cases, but the inconsistent diameter could also be the result of them being bad at digging tunnels. Digging tunnels by hand is hard (and - dare I say - scary).

I don't think being bad at digging tunnels can explain the bottlenecks. They are way smaller than what you'd expect from inconsistent diameter due to poor digging.

Some inconsistency from poor digging can be ignored as a minor inconvenience. It is no big deal if in one section you have to duck a little. The bottlenecks on the other hand are so small that the noticeably impede progress, and some people probably could not get through them at all.

If they are not there intentionally that would be too big of an inconsistency to ignore.

Re: The secret medieval tunnels that we still don't understand

#40

Post by crazygringo »

araes wrote: post #35
alwa wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed: that would help reconcile the presumed secrecy with the fact that, also per the article, there are upwards of 2000 of these tunnel-structures that fall into this category. All across Central Europe. Aggressor knows THAT there's likely a safe-tunnel, but doesn't know exactly WHERE the safe-tunnel is, and whether it's worth taking the time to find... For that matter—A place to stash the kids from the census-tak…

Tax collector avoidance is actually a pretty excellent alternative proposal. From searching, it looks like a lot of the taxes were on stuff that was difficult to hide, like farm animals owned, and houses / farmland. However, this site [1] shows several categories for taxation that might be hidden to falsify the taxation basis. Cash, Inventories, Household Goods, Luxury Clothing. Admittedly, it seems like there would…

Interesting, but probably you'd hide things like cash or clothing in a small box nearby, buried maybe. Not in a large communal tunnel.
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