Earlier quoted context omitted.
Design goals are great. How do they actually achieve it?
Not with flood routing.
Yes, you said. You’ve been very helpful in telling us how it doesn’t work.
The Zen of Reticulum
31–40 of 74 posts
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#32Philosophize all you want; if the first instruction in your manual is 'pip install' I don't consider you to be anywhere near as offline / off-grid as you claim to be. All the Lora mesh projects do this. For all the off-grid advertising they do, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought put into bootstrapping or maintaining the network once the internet is gone. (yes, you and I could probably figure it out, but some u…
Just so I understand, what sort of bootstrap process are you looking for? Even a pre-built binary is going to require a download? If you build from source (e.g., C), you’re going to need to download the source code and a compiler. I’m not much a Python guy myself, but installing via pip doesn’t seem particularly bad. But I’m probably missing your point.
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#33Philosophize all you want; if the first instruction in your manual is 'pip install' I don't consider you to be anywhere near as offline / off-grid as you claim to be. All the Lora mesh projects do this. For all the off-grid advertising they do, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought put into bootstrapping or maintaining the network once the internet is gone. (yes, you and I could probably figure it out, but some u…
"The internet no longer exists" is a particularly extreme subset of off-grid scenarios. For the more plausible off-grid scenarios—the ones that have actually happened—the unavailability of the internet has been varying degrees of localized and temporary. In that context, being able to bootstrap the entire network without any reliance on internet infrastructure is more of a convenience than a hard requirement.
In particular, it seems obvious to me that any preparedness plan that requires a user to acquire in advance specialized hardware (eg. a battery/solar-powered long-range radio of some kind) to be used with an off-grid network can reasonably expect that user to also be prepared with the software to drive that hardware.
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#34I’ve looked at a few of the LoRa-based mesh network systems over the last couple months. They all seem to have a philosophical document of some sort, like this one, sometimes buried as part of the user docs, but none of them have clear protocol specification docs. When I look at their node maps, the node counts are absurdly small (like 20 nodes in a city of 1 million people). I suspect each of them has major scaling…
Meshtastic is the most popular in my area. I can see about 150 nodes from my house in a US county of ~300K (though actually being able to talk to most of those remains questionable).
I am certain the popularity of Meshtastic is down to how easy they have made it to onboard. Buy the module, flash using the web flasher, install the app on your phone, done. There's a Youtube tutorial on every street corner for this, even though I (and seemingly many people) don't find Meshtastic to be all that reliable.
For reference, this is what Meshtastic has to say about their flood-based mesh protocol: https://meshtastic.org/docs/overview/mesh-algo/
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#35I’ve looked at a few of the LoRa-based mesh network systems over the last couple months. They all seem to have a philosophical document of some sort, like this one, sometimes buried as part of the user docs, but none of them have clear protocol specification docs. When I look at their node maps, the node counts are absurdly small (like 20 nodes in a city of 1 million people). I suspect each of them has major scaling…
Meshtastic is the most popular in my area. I can see about 150 nodes from my house in a US county of ~300K (though actually being able to talk to most of those remains questionable). I am certain the popularity of Meshtastic is down to how easy they have made it to onboard. Buy the module, flash using the web flasher, install the app on your phone, done. There's a Youtube tutorial on every street corner for this, eve…
To be clear, I’m not harshing on Meshtastic’s node counts. In some sense these systems are like packet ham radio. They appeal to a specific user base. I just question how their protocols are going to scale, and even 150 nodes is extremely small compared to the number of people around you who are using the Internet, WiFi, etc.
So, for instance, at the URL you referenced, it says at the bottom:
> As meshes grow larger and traffic becomes more contentious, the firmware will increase these intervals. This is in addition to duty cycle, channel, and air-time utilization throttling.
> Starting with version 2.4.0, the firmware will scale back Telemetry, Position, and other ancillary port traffic for meshes larger than 40 nodes (nodes seen in the past 2 hours) using the following algorithm:
> ScaledInterval = Interval * (1.0 + ((NumberOfOnlineNodes - 40) * 0.075))
> For example an active mesh of 62 nodes would scale back telemetry.device_update_interval to 79.5 minutes instead of the 30 minute default.
It looks like they are already building back-off strategies as the net scales, and that starts to happen at very low node counts (just 40). So, what happens when node counts hit 500 or 1000? Again, not trying to throw stones; just trying to understand how far these protocols can go and how they degrade/fail as they scale. Ideally, they don’t fall over and even possibly get more robust (with more nodes, there are typically more topological connections between nodes, which provides more possible paths and resiliency).
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#36Philosophize all you want; if the first instruction in your manual is 'pip install' I don't consider you to be anywhere near as offline / off-grid as you claim to be. All the Lora mesh projects do this. For all the off-grid advertising they do, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought put into bootstrapping or maintaining the network once the internet is gone. (yes, you and I could probably figure it out, but some u…
Just so I understand, what sort of bootstrap process are you looking for? Even a pre-built binary is going to require a download? If you build from source (e.g., C), you’re going to need to download the source code and a compiler. I’m not much a Python guy myself, but installing via pip doesn’t seem particularly bad. But I’m probably missing your point.
My goal is to be able to do all steps of the typical Meshtastic youtube tutorial without access to the internet.
I like to liken it to my other hobby of retrocomputing. In the old days, your whole OS and all the applications ran from a few floppies and a couple of books for documentation. If you need to duplicate the environment, just make copies of your disks. And of course you need an original set to start with. But nobody thinks of that as "offline", that's just the normal way it works, and yet it seems more offline than modern projects who claim to be offline.
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sure such militias wouldn't worry about the ToS. However there's a chance apartheid and authoritarian countries would not use it exactly because of this.
> However there's a chance apartheid and authoritarian countries would not use it exactly because of this. I don't think they will care.
Yep. People wanting to do the right thing and prepare at scale for self-defense won't violate the license but the people it intends to restrict will, because they don't care.
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#38Too bad the Zen of Reticulum is against freedom. Specifically freedom 0: the freedom to use the software for any purpose. Its restrictions preventing it "from being used in systems designed to harm humans" prevents it from being used in e.g. militia groups in oppressed countries who may wish to use it to harm humans in self-defense.
It's such a strange and unfortunate addition to the project. Also, what's the point of assuming every entity is potentially hostile? Can't you just put in the license "you're not allowed to be malicious or hostile on this network"?
That's still a restriction on freedom. Some people's notion of malicious might disagree with the author's.
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#39Philosophize all you want; if the first instruction in your manual is 'pip install' I don't consider you to be anywhere near as offline / off-grid as you claim to be. All the Lora mesh projects do this. For all the off-grid advertising they do, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought put into bootstrapping or maintaining the network once the internet is gone. (yes, you and I could probably figure it out, but some u…
Ha! I believe every RNode can be used to bootstrap a Reticulum network, as that tiny ESP32 hosts the RNode firmware, the full network software stack and documentation! The RNode has the capability to become a Wifi access point, if you connect you get this at 10.0.0.1.:
https://unsigned.io/rnode_bootstrap_console/
Shit's insanely well thought out! I encourage everyone to dive in a bit. It's pure tech porn. (If you can endure the occasional Ayn Rand quote lol.)
Re: The Zen of Reticulum
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's such a strange and unfortunate addition to the project. Also, what's the point of assuming every entity is potentially hostile? Can't you just put in the license "you're not allowed to be malicious or hostile on this network"?
Just read the manifest. GP used intentionally hostile and weird interpretation of "if you intend to subdue, enslave or kill, don't use it", aimed at dictatorships, organisations like Palantir, etc.
What? If I'm in a militia group that resists oppressive governments, I intend to kill people. Therefore I'm not allowed to use Reticulum to coordinate with my mates, even though most people would agree that I'm not killing immorally.