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No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

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Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#31

Post by OhMeadhbh »

Swizec wrote: post #21

> at 15 engineers, it is very doable for a single person to keep track of everyone's work and ensure alignment. All my past experience disagrees. Sure you have 15 engineers, but you're supporting a business of 150 people. This is a pretty common ratio. The noise gets very loud at that scale and it becomes almost impossible for self-managed engineers to make forward progress. At the very least you need super clearly d…

it's worth reading Mythical Man Month WRT team composition. not because Brooks says anything new about the subject, but to get perspective on how long people have been trying to find a good idea for how to structure teams.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#32

Post by pyrale »

alephnerd wrote: post #12
systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

You don't have to work at an early stage startup - in fact most people don't. But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup, and plenty do in Europe as well. > So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week. And this is why when I was a PM, we shut down our Amsterdam office and shifted it to Praha, Bucharest, and Warsaw. You won't find as many people who will complain about a…

> But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup

You don't need to push yourself into burnout as an employee in order to participate in an early stage startup.

> earning €80k

80k€ gross is not a lot for a decent SWE in western europe. The reason people complain in Amsterdam is not the hours, it's that your comp is shit.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#33

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

burnto wrote: post #18

> Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books Initial motivation is the hired trait. It’s very easy to demotivate people. The trick is to not do that.

“ It’s very easy to demotivate people”

So true. And really hard to reverse

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#34

Post by cmrdporcupine »

pyrale wrote: post #27

> I know several top 1% engineers in the Valley who disengage from recruiting processes when 996 or something similar is mentioned. A few years back, on this board, 996 was something people made fun of when it was reported that some Chinese companies did it [1]. And now, the strongest claim this blog can make is that some engineers in the US would disengage from recruiting? That the issue with working on saturdays is…

What happened? Started with Musk purging half his staff ...

I've been around long enough in this industry to see the pendulum swing back and forth a few times. The peak of 2020/2021 was the epitome of "spoiled tech worker" but now we're well on our way the other side, I'd say.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#35

Post by Herring »

pyrale wrote: post #27

> I know several top 1% engineers in the Valley who disengage from recruiting processes when 996 or something similar is mentioned. A few years back, on this board, 996 was something people made fun of when it was reported that some Chinese companies did it [1]. And now, the strongest claim this blog can make is that some engineers in the US would disengage from recruiting? That the issue with working on saturdays is…

It’s better to look at what didn’t happen: unionization.

Americans often remind me of Steve Jobs trying to cure cancer using diets & acupuncture. You know what the solutions are, you just don’t like them.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#36

Post by OhMeadhbh »

systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

not everyone in the states is 996, but yeah, there's a pandemic of bad management here. or rather... not so much bad management... but management by people who read articles about how Amazon, a company with tens of thousands of engineers, manages projects and then decides they're going to manage their startup of 4 people the same way because they think it's a "growth hacking" hack.

just keep in mind that American tech startups are often just vehicles to evade estate tax. and certainly vehicles for converting VC money into more VC money by selling dreams to greater fools. there's also a down side.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#37

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Nextgrid wrote: post #30
alephnerd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to work at an early stage startup - in fact most people don't. But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup, and plenty do in Europe as well. > So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week. And this is why when I was a PM, we shut down our Amsterdam office and shifted it to Praha, Bucharest, and Warsaw. You won't find as many people who will complain about a…

As usual, the problem is not 996 itself but comp. You can get 996, you just have to pay for it. The reason Europeans don't want to do 996 is because the extra effort isn't fairly compensated.

Not only is it rarely compensated, it's rarely effective.

Software work is bursty and creative, not mechanical and hourly.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#39

Post by Nextgrid »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Hire good people and trust them, they will build the best they can for the users they can talk to If you don’t know what good people look like you can’t win.

And pay them well. If you want people to build you a thing that prints money, you better give them a sizeable cut. Otherwise enjoy "market rate" performance.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#40

Post by charcircuit »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #8
OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are an early stage startup and your founders have a habit of talking about "competitors", run like hell. Why? Comparing what the competitors are doing can be a great way to come up with new ideas

because comparing yourself to your competitors will get you a faster horse buggy, not an automobile. if you're in a startup, you should be risking making automobiles. if you want to make faster horse buggies, go work for AT&T.

Good ideas need the right timing to line up. AT&T can afford to keep a research project around until the timing is right where a startup needs to find market fit immediately.
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