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What *is* code? (2015)

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Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#31

Post by piperswe »

bossyTeacher wrote: post #28
wavemode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a gap between receptionist and official software engineer. At many companies (especially old, stodgy companies) this gap is artificial. The day you get asked "hey, I've got some data .... and I need ..." and you successfully solve the person's problem, is the day you become the office's live-in software engineer. That person you helped will be back, and they will bring friends. The rest after that is just…

Not sure what country you live in, but where I live, a receptionist doesn't have access to any data processing tools that are not within the realm of a receptionist, and therefore this mobility does not happen. The receptionist ends up redirect the query to someone who has access to the relevant systems. What sort of companies are those were receptionists have access to tools beyond their role? and why are people app…

In a small business, the receptionist may be responsible for inputting much of that data in the first place, and it may just live on the receptionist's computer.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#32

Post by immibis »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
jurgenaut23 wrote: post #4

Wow. The guy can write, that’s for sure! And what a refreshment from f*king AI slop that you find everywhere these days.

You can say fucking here, one, we're all adults, two, there's no algorithms on HN penalising you (and if they were they'd penalise you anyway because it's not 1995 anymore), and three, it's almost insulting to believe replacing a letter with a star will make a word unrecognisable. That said, this is why I like HN or any other kind of curated website, the voting systems and comments and the like will (hopefully) make…

There are algorithms at play across HN. There are more types of algorithms than ones that penalize comments with swear words in them.

Some HN algorithms are run by HN servers, some are run by HN moderators, and some are run by third parties.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#33

Post by vacuity »

danieltanfh95 wrote: post #21
iqp wrote: post #5

Beautifully written, a joy to read but, sadly, it feels like something from a bygone era. Nobody chants "Developers! Developers! Developers!" anymore now that everything is dominated by AI, and the joy of coding is gone too. People like Steve Yegge, who I used to aspire to be like back in 2006, when I started my career as a developer, now writes about how he uses 10+ concurrent LLM agents to code, review, and ship &…

Why not just let the product manager use some no-code tool? I think software engineers are having an identity disconnect from their roles as engineers vs coders. Engineering is about solving problems via tools and knowledge through constraints. An engineer is not diminished by having other engineers or better tooling as assistants. If you are having problems understanding your role in the problem, frankly you need to…

You are correct in the abstract, but concretely I contest how useful LLMs are for producing software. I don't doubt their usefulness in prototyping or, say, writing web apps, but I truly do not think they are revolutionary for me, or for software development as a whole.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#34

Post by dang »

kuharich wrote: post #12
dang wrote: post #2

Related. Others? What Is Code? (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33331697 - Oct 2022 (50 comments) What is code - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17259483 - June 2018 (36 comments) What Is Code? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9698870 - June 2015 (356 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699945

Thanks! That one had only one comment (a good one though - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9700322) so I merged it into https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9698870. (and yes, updated the comment count above)

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#35

Post by shawnz »

christoph-heiss wrote: post #17
iqp wrote: post #5

Beautifully written, a joy to read but, sadly, it feels like something from a bygone era. Nobody chants "Developers! Developers! Developers!" anymore now that everything is dominated by AI, and the joy of coding is gone too. People like Steve Yegge, who I used to aspire to be like back in 2006, when I started my career as a developer, now writes about how he uses 10+ concurrent LLM agents to code, review, and ship &…

Why are you using LLMs then, if you enjoy the actual process of thinking about a problem and solving it by writing code? It's definitely a more enjoyable world this way.

I used to think this, until I tried it. Now I see that it effectively removes all the tedium while still letting you have whatever level of creative control you want over the output.

Just imagine that instead of having to work off of an amorphous draft in your head, it really creates the draft right in front of you in actual code. You can still shape and craft and refine it just the same, but now you have tons more working memory free to use for the actually meaningful parts of the problem.

And, you're way less burdened by analysis paralysis. Instead of running in circles thinking about how you want to implement something, you can just try it both ways. There's no sunk cost of picking the wrong approach because it's practically instantaneous.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#36

Post by wavemode »

bossyTeacher wrote: post #28
wavemode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a gap between receptionist and official software engineer. At many companies (especially old, stodgy companies) this gap is artificial. The day you get asked "hey, I've got some data .... and I need ..." and you successfully solve the person's problem, is the day you become the office's live-in software engineer. That person you helped will be back, and they will bring friends. The rest after that is just…

Not sure what country you live in, but where I live, a receptionist doesn't have access to any data processing tools that are not within the realm of a receptionist, and therefore this mobility does not happen. The receptionist ends up redirect the query to someone who has access to the relevant systems. What sort of companies are those were receptionists have access to tools beyond their role? and why are people app…

You're still thinking too much in a "tech company" mindset. At the kind of company I'm talking about, concepts like "access" and "permissions" are irrelevant. Most of the company's employees barely know how a computer works.

You seemed vaguely tech savvy, so someone asked you for help and emailed you a file containing the data (or perhaps just handed you a laptop and turned you loose). The rest is history.

It's a modern invention that companies have separate software engineering orgs, software engineering roadmaps, software engineering managers. At older companies, a software developer is just another businessperson in a cubicle. Your manager probably has an English degree.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#37

Post by layer8 »

shawnz wrote: post #35
christoph-heiss wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you using LLMs then, if you enjoy the actual process of thinking about a problem and solving it by writing code? It's definitely a more enjoyable world this way.

I used to think this, until I tried it. Now I see that it effectively removes all the tedium while still letting you have whatever level of creative control you want over the output. Just imagine that instead of having to work off of an amorphous draft in your head, it really creates the draft right in front of you in actual code. You can still shape and craft and refine it just the same, but now you have tons more w…

I’m getting the impression that developers vary substantially in what they consider tedium, or meaningful.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#38

Post by shawnz »

layer8 wrote: post #37
shawnz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this, until I tried it. Now I see that it effectively removes all the tedium while still letting you have whatever level of creative control you want over the output. Just imagine that instead of having to work off of an amorphous draft in your head, it really creates the draft right in front of you in actual code. You can still shape and craft and refine it just the same, but now you have tons more w…

I’m getting the impression that developers vary substantially in what they consider tedium, or meaningful.

Sure, and that goes even for myself. Like for example, on some projects maybe I'll be more interested in exploring a particular architectural choice than actually focusing on the details of the feature. It ultimately doesn't matter, the point is that you can choose where to spend your attention, instead of being forced to always go through all the motions even for things that are just irrelevant boilerplate

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#39

Post by dghlsakjg »

bossyTeacher wrote: post #28
wavemode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a gap between receptionist and official software engineer. At many companies (especially old, stodgy companies) this gap is artificial. The day you get asked "hey, I've got some data .... and I need ..." and you successfully solve the person's problem, is the day you become the office's live-in software engineer. That person you helped will be back, and they will bring friends. The rest after that is just…

Not sure what country you live in, but where I live, a receptionist doesn't have access to any data processing tools that are not within the realm of a receptionist, and therefore this mobility does not happen. The receptionist ends up redirect the query to someone who has access to the relevant systems. What sort of companies are those were receptionists have access to tools beyond their role? and why are people app…

Many small business.

The first job I had where I did anything technical (basic JS and HTML) also had me cold calling, answering phones, designing brochures, fiberglass repair, and some other stuff I’m forgetting. Small businesses frequently have more niche jobs than people and are more than happy to have people help where they are interested.

My first full software job was a direct to consumer company, and during the Christmas rush the entire front office was on the packing line.

Larger companies tend to appreciate people staying in their lane.

Re: What *is* code? (2015)

#40

Post by cestith »

piperswe wrote: post #31
bossyTeacher wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what country you live in, but where I live, a receptionist doesn't have access to any data processing tools that are not within the realm of a receptionist, and therefore this mobility does not happen. The receptionist ends up redirect the query to someone who has access to the relevant systems. What sort of companies are those were receptionists have access to tools beyond their role? and why are people app…

In a small business, the receptionist may be responsible for inputting much of that data in the first place, and it may just live on the receptionist's computer.

In fact in some companies outside of tech proper with smaller headcount and less technically minded management, by the time the boss decides to look into systems like HRIS, CRM, ERM, and such the receptionist, office manager, and/or the interns already have about 837 Excel macros doing most of that work.
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