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Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

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Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#31

Post by jltsiren »

noelwelsh wrote: post #26
reactordev wrote: post #6

I want events to occur while I'm down in the dungeon. Maybe a neighboring village got attacked and now it's in ashes and down trodden. Maybe a castle is being besieged. I want a "play your own adventure" where the story just kind of happens. No main plot other than maybe certain events happening at a specific time. Games today are too linear. Even "open world" games. They zone it out so there's a progression, go to t…

One problem with the simulation route is that games in the D&D lineage are usually wildly unbalanced. A, say, level 5 monster could run through endless level 1 NPCs. Also, much of the machinery of our world (e.g. commerce) doesn't really work when then there are incredibly dangerous and malevolent critters scattered throughout.

It's more about the combat model. Everyone is a fanatic who fights until death, despite any casualties their friends and allies have suffered. And weapons and other attacks are mostly harmless. They deal limited damage measured in hit points, which does not affect the combat effectiveness of the target, heals quickly, and does not leave any lasting effects.

In a different combat model, an equally unbalanced monster would avoid unnecessary fights agains groups of armed opponents. Not because it's afraid it would lose, but due to the risk of permanent injuries. Determined defenders could then try to take advantage of that behavior to drive the monster away.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#32

Post by huevosabio »

I really like the balance that Morrowind offered: it all felt like one big world and going from town to outside to dungeon was smooth and unannounced. You really felt like you were discovering a place, and you really got lost in a pre-gmaps sense.

A modern version I like is Bg3. It has a much more linear playthrough than Morrowind and Toen/Outside/Dungeon is more clearly marked, but it's still smooth. Also, you have a sense of uncertain danger in all three setups. And dungeons can be fightless if you play them well!

Also, it's interesting how both Morrowind and Bg3 are both able to integrate the environment and the NPCs neatly into the battle system. Both feel like you're fighting in a live world. But they do it very differently. I think in bg3 it is much more fun to fight, but Morrowind allows for more silliness and out of the box thinking.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#33

Post by ajmurmann »

chongli wrote: post #17
reactordev wrote: post #6

I want events to occur while I'm down in the dungeon. Maybe a neighboring village got attacked and now it's in ashes and down trodden. Maybe a castle is being besieged. I want a "play your own adventure" where the story just kind of happens. No main plot other than maybe certain events happening at a specific time. Games today are too linear. Even "open world" games. They zone it out so there's a progression, go to t…

Check out the games by Jeff Vogel [1] of Spiderweb Software [2]. His games may not be pretty to look at but they feature worlds that are full of life and rich with detail. Monsters attack and damage towns, destroy buildings, leave citizens homeless and shopkeepers jobless, and may eventually wipe towns off the map. Meanwhile, the world is also full of outside areas to explore and dungeons to plunder. However, no town…

Many years ago I played Escape a from the Pit which was good but I played it on an iPad and eventually bounced off. Where do you recommend starting today?

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#34

Post by block_dagger »

reactordev wrote: post #6

I want events to occur while I'm down in the dungeon. Maybe a neighboring village got attacked and now it's in ashes and down trodden. Maybe a castle is being besieged. I want a "play your own adventure" where the story just kind of happens. No main plot other than maybe certain events happening at a specific time. Games today are too linear. Even "open world" games. They zone it out so there's a progression, go to t…

Ah, UO memories. PK killing as a Great Lord, Blackthorne shield in hand. Visiting town was all "bank" "bank" "bank" "lfg" "bank"

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#35

Post by ema »

I think Gothic II did this really well. While there are some clear borders a lot of the transitions between the three categories are gradual and organic. You're mostly safe in the secondary settlements but go too far into someone's backyard and you might suddenly find yourself fighting for your life. It also managed to make the place feel expansive without any place feeling like repetitive filler content.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#38

Post by medwards666 »

ajmurmann wrote: post #33
chongli wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the games by Jeff Vogel [1] of Spiderweb Software [2]. His games may not be pretty to look at but they feature worlds that are full of life and rich with detail. Monsters attack and damage towns, destroy buildings, leave citizens homeless and shopkeepers jobless, and may eventually wipe towns off the map. Meanwhile, the world is also full of outside areas to explore and dungeons to plunder. However, no town…

Many years ago I played Escape a from the Pit which was good but I played it on an iPad and eventually bounced off. Where do you recommend starting today?

You could try the new remake of Avernum 4: Greed & Glory (first part of the second Avernum trilogy - no need to have played the first trilogy as this is entirely standalone): https://store.steampowered.com/app/3882020/Avernum_4_Greed_a...

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#39

Post by mathgeek »

ajmurmann wrote: post #33
chongli wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the games by Jeff Vogel [1] of Spiderweb Software [2]. His games may not be pretty to look at but they feature worlds that are full of life and rich with detail. Monsters attack and damage towns, destroy buildings, leave citizens homeless and shopkeepers jobless, and may eventually wipe towns off the map. Meanwhile, the world is also full of outside areas to explore and dungeons to plunder. However, no town…

Many years ago I played Escape a from the Pit which was good but I played it on an iPad and eventually bounced off. Where do you recommend starting today?

Nothing too recent that I know of but a couple of discussions:

https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26438-good-first-g...

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/what_are_your_favorite_spi...

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#40

Post by Forgeties79 »

Whenever you decide to buck general rules in video games you risk coming off as capricious. The only way to make it work IME is to clearly indicate from the beginning that you aren’t playing a game that adheres to typical rules OR you build a system that masks it so convincingly that people start questioning what the rules even are on their own. It’s kind of like going to see a magician: you know magic isn’t real, but when you see a really fucking awesome trick, you allow yourself to suspend your disbelief for at least a split second.

DDLC was cool, then it was cool to hate it, now it’s not a surprise anymore and has landed somewhere in the middle with I think most folks acknowledging it was a cool example of messing with the harem/dating sim formula. What I liked about it was how I spent a lot of the game figuring out what the rules were (I knew it was not a conventional harem game and I knew it had horror elements, but I really went out of my way to go in with as little information as possible). I kind of think that’s where the special sauce is if you want to break the “shackles” of things like outside/dungeon/town. BG3 had that magic for most of the first act I think for a lot of people, which I also think carried a lot of its success (and rightfully so). Once we saw behind the curtain it made a little more sense, but when you first dropped into that game it wasn’t clear what the boundaries or consequences were. The matrix wasn’t laid out before you. That’s the key.

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