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Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

quantamagazine.org

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#31

> The results suggested that in even higher-energy collisions, the proton would appear as a cloud made up almost entirely of gluons. The gluon dandelion is exactly what QCD predicts. I find the proton as a gluon dandelion cloud enthralling

Non-physicst here. Hopefully someone can correct me or elaborate. My understanding is that what's being described is smaller scale decoherence inside the proton. Normally, the universe only asks protons the question: "are you a proton?" and it's like "Yep I'm a proton." (What's your baryon number? What's your charge? etc)

When we blast it with higher and higher energies, we're asking new questions: "What are the momenta of your quarks? What's your color field arrangement?" There are many possible answers to those questions and we're now starting to see the landscape of them.

So having different answers based on how you look is really answering different questions, just like asking an electron: What's your momentum? What's your location?

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#32

When I was a physics student, there were four forces: strong, weak, EM, and gravity. That picture seemed neat and clean. Strong kept the nucleus together, EM kept molecules and atoms together (or broke them apart), gravity kept astronomical bodies together, weak was some kind of momentum-accounting device. Recently, GPT informed me that the strong force is really a tiny after-effect of the "QCD force" (in the same wa…

I think physics has felt pretty incomplete since the confirmation of qm non-locality in the 60s.

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#33
I've heard this quote before, and I don't get it. This article fails to show me just how complicated that is. When I think "complicated," I think of a multiplicity of interconnected chemical molecular processes like what must happen in the cell, or layers of recursively connected neurons in the brain. Not some mindless cloud of gluons. What they've described seems less "complicated" and more "confusing." "We don't understand this (yet?)" is a lot different than "it's possible to understand this, if your brain is really big."

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#35
post #21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting that implication? I didn't see anything in the article suggesting that neutrons were simple and I would share your skepticism if someone claimed they were. The fact that neutrons can spontaneously decay into protons (plus other stuff) suggests otherwise.

The title implies it directly.

If you saw an article titled “My Nana is the nicest person you could possibly meet”, would you interpret that to be a statement that your own grandmother is considerably less nice?

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#36

When I was a physics student, there were four forces: strong, weak, EM, and gravity. That picture seemed neat and clean. Strong kept the nucleus together, EM kept molecules and atoms together (or broke them apart), gravity kept astronomical bodies together, weak was some kind of momentum-accounting device. Recently, GPT informed me that the strong force is really a tiny after-effect of the "QCD force" (in the same wa…

> 25 years ago it seemed like physics was mostly complete, and the only remaining work was exploring the corner cases and polishing out all the imperfections. It doesn't feel that way anymore!

Physicists thought the same thing c. 1900, but then one of the "corner cases" turned into the ultraviolet catastrophe[1]. The consequences of the solution to that problem kept the whole field busy for a good part of the 20th century.

I'm highly skeptical of the idea that physics is anywhere near complete. The relative success of our technology gives us the illusory impression that we're almost done, but it's not obvious that physics even has a single, complete description that we can describe. We assume it does for convenience, in the same way that we assume the laws are constant everywhere in spacetime. I view this as both exciting and terrifying, but mostly exciting.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_catastrophe

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutrons are just as complex, they’re much harder to study though.

If i remember correctly Feynman said in one of his lectures that we know the mass of the electron with much greater precision than the proton, which may mean that it electrons are easier to study. I don't know if this is still true though.

Oh yes and so much so! Electrons are point-like (not composite like a proton) and interact only electroweakly (not strongly).

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#38

When I was a physics student, there were four forces: strong, weak, EM, and gravity. That picture seemed neat and clean. Strong kept the nucleus together, EM kept molecules and atoms together (or broke them apart), gravity kept astronomical bodies together, weak was some kind of momentum-accounting device. Recently, GPT informed me that the strong force is really a tiny after-effect of the "QCD force" (in the same wa…

> 25 years ago it seemed like physics was mostly complete, and the only remaining work was exploring the corner cases and polishing out all the imperfections

Around 125 years ago, many thought the same about physics, that physics is mostly complete and it just explaining and finishing some edge cases and polishing all our measurements. There was just two things that were a little bit puzzling, the "looming clouds" over physics (per Kelvin description) will later lead to both Quantum Theory and Theory of relativity (Black body radiation and Michelson–Morley experiment) and the fundamental change of our understanding for physics after that.

So I would not take this position. Does this mean we are in a similar moment? maybe, who knows?

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At ISIS (Oxford neutron source)… Spallation generation: High-energy protons (~800 MeV) hit a heavy target, releasing a wide spectrum of fast neutrons up to hundreds of MeV. These are then moderated down to useful energies for experiments. It’s not the LHC, sure. But I don’t see any reason (apart from “why bother”) why they can’t do spallation in Geneva. OK maybe there’s a cooling problem…

Spallation is the easy part But neutrons can't go around a tube being guided by magnetic fields

Well my point is that the energy of the spallation neutrons is monotonically related to the energy of the protons hitting the Tungsten target ... although somewhat lower. I would consider these 100s MeV partiles to be (quite) high energy in contrast to the thermal neutrons alluded to elsewhere. Sure the spallation is lossy, but the result is still pretty high. And the physics is somewhat different with neutron experiments vs. protons... iiuc

Re: Inside the proton, the ‘most complicated thing you could possibly imagine’ (2022)

#40

> The results suggested that in even higher-energy collisions, the proton would appear as a cloud made up almost entirely of gluons. The gluon dandelion is exactly what QCD predicts. I find the proton as a gluon dandelion cloud enthralling

Non-physicst here. Hopefully someone can correct me or elaborate. My understanding is that what's being described is smaller scale decoherence inside the proton. Normally, the universe only asks protons the question: "are you a proton?" and it's like "Yep I'm a proton." (What's your baryon number? What's your charge? etc) When we blast it with higher and higher energies, we're asking new questions: "What are the mome…

> decoherence

This has a specific meaning and is not a word I would use here. For something to be "decoherent" the particle phases would need to be "uncorrelated" or "random", but given the internal wavelengths, masses, and strength of the interaction of the particles involved against the spatial dimension of the proton this is not the case under quantum field theory.

In some ways the problem of this being "complicated" is because it's intractably coherent with a fluctuating large number of particles interacting via three "colors" of self-interacting charge (very different from electric charge and not just "three" independent charges) to consider. I'd put money on any decoherence would likely simplify the problem.

> Normally, the universe only asks protons the question: "are you a proton?" and it's like "Yep I'm a proton." (What's your baryon number? What's your charge? etc)

Protons have internal structure (the quarks and gluons) and size. Those are relevant to its interactions. To consider a proton "by itself" and just reduced to quantum numbers is not "normal" if by "normal" you mean "protons at a scale in nature you deal with every day". Those protons are bound in nuclei and are modified by the fact they are bound. These effects have been explicitly measured and documented, the EMC effect being one of them. The "new questions" you are referring to are in fact relevant questions at low energies and are not "new". They are a large active area of research typically referred to as "medium energy" (despite the fact it extends into "low" energy traditional nuclear physics and high energy QCD physics).

Even in a hydrogen atom, the internal structure of the proton modifies the chemistry by small changes in the electronic shell energies, in particular contributions to the lamb shift which has been used to measure the radius of the proton.

Maybe most directly, if what you described were the case you wouldn't have so many decimals in atomic mass numbers of nuclei.

> So having different answers based on how you look is really answering different questions, just like asking an electron: What's your momentum? What's your location?

The problems of looking at quarks and gluons at different energy scales are also endemic to other forces (e.g. electromagnetic) and all particles (for example, look up the running of coupling constants and renormalization theory). Saying they are "different" questions is more akin to comparing questions of skyscraper engineering and concrete dust mechanics. They are not orthogonal as I would consider momentum and location. They're questions of scale and things like emergent effects at different scales.

There are orthogonal questions of internal structure to be considered, though. Deep inelastic scattering processes at high energies tend to ask the "what are the momentum" questions. Elastic nucleon form factors ask more the "location". They both exist in a unified framework of "generalized parton distributions".

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