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Great! Now make `set` have a stable order and we're done here.
Aren’t sets unsorted by definition? Or do repeated accesses without modification yield different results?
I wonder whether Raymond Hettinger has an opinion on this PEP. A long time ago, he wrote: "freezing dicts is a can of worms and not especially useful". https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/0...
Things that were not useful in 2006 might be totally useful in 2026 ;P
Still, like you, I'm curious wether he has anything to say about it.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This place hates laziness and imprecision. Using ChatGPT for editing or inspiration is okay as long as you personally review the results for accuracy and completeness, at which point people care about it as much as you announcing that you used a spell checker.
Pasting chat GPT responses is against the site rules. always has been even before GPT https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46206457
I wonder whether Raymond Hettinger has an opinion on this PEP. A long time ago, he wrote: "freezing dicts is a can of worms and not especially useful". https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/0...
It explains a lot about the design of Python container classes, and the boundaries of polymorphism / duck typing with them, and mutation between them.
I don't always agree with the choices made in Python's container APIs...but I always want to understand them as well as possible.
Also worth noting that understanding changes over time. Remember when GvR and the rest of the core developers argued adamantly against ordered dictionaries? Haha! Good times! Thank goodness their first wave of understanding wasn't their last. Concurrency and parallelism in Python was a TINY issue in 2006, but at the forefront of Python evolution these days. And immutability has come a long way as a design theme, even for languages that fully embrace stateful change.
Wow weird Mandela effect for me. I really remember this being a built and actually using it.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren’t sets unsorted by definition? Or do repeated accesses without modification yield different results?
this is likely in reference to the fact that dicts have maintained insertion order since Python ~3.6 as property of the language. Mathematically there's no defined order to a set, and a dict is really just a set in disguise, but it's very convenient for determinism to "add" this invariant to the language.
Wow weird Mandela effect for me. I really remember this being a built and actually using it.
https://peps.python.org/pep-0416/
Also one in 2019 for a "frozenmap":
Wow weird Mandela effect for me. I really remember this being a built and actually using it.
I wonder whether Raymond Hettinger has an opinion on this PEP. A long time ago, he wrote: "freezing dicts is a can of worms and not especially useful". https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/0...
... Well, yes; it doesn't support the methods for mutation. Thinking of ImmutableFoo as a subclass of Foo is never going to work. And, indeed, `set` and `frozenset` don't have an inheritance relationship.
I normally find Hettinger very insightful so this one is disappointing. But nobody's perfect, and we change over time (and so do the underlying conditions). I've felt like frozendict was missing for a long time, though. And really I think the language would have been better with a more formal concept of immutability (e.g. linking it more explicitly to hashability; having explicit recognition of "cache" attributes, ...), even if it didn't go the immutable-by-default route.
I wonder whether Raymond Hettinger has an opinion on this PEP. A long time ago, he wrote: "freezing dicts is a can of worms and not especially useful". https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/0...
That's a great link and recommended reading. It explains a lot about the design of Python container classes, and the boundaries of polymorphism / duck typing with them, and mutation between them. I don't always agree with the choices made in Python's container APIs...but I always want to understand them as well as possible. Also worth noting that understanding changes over time. Remember when GvR and the rest of the…
The new implementation has saved space, but there are opportunities to save more space (specifically after deleting keys) that they've now denied themselves by offering the ordering guarantee.