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Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

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31–40 of 110 posts

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#31
Grok 4.1 thinks my 1-day vibe-coded apps are SOTA-level and rival the most competitive market offerings. Literally tells me they're some of the best codebases it's ever reviewed.

It even added itself as the default LLM provider.

When I tried Gemini 3 Pro, it very much inserted itself as the supported LLM integration.

OpenAI hasn't tried to do that yet.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#32
post #6
post #2

"Dark pattern" implies intentionality; that's not a technicality, it's the whole reason we have the term. This article is mostly about how sycophancy is an emergent property of LLMs. It's also 7 months old.

It's not 'emergent' in the sense that it just happens; it's a byproduct of human feedback, and it can be neutralized.

But isn’t the problem that if an LLM ‘neutralizes’ its sycophantic responses, then people will be driven to use other LLMs that don’t?

This is like suggesting a bar should help solve alcoholism by serving non-alcoholic beer to people who order too much. It won’t solve alcoholism, it will just make the bar go out of business.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#33
post #2

"Dark pattern" implies intentionality; that's not a technicality, it's the whole reason we have the term. This article is mostly about how sycophancy is an emergent property of LLMs. It's also 7 months old.

Well, the ‘intentionality’ is of the form of LLM creators wanting to maximize user engagement, and using engagement as the training goal.

The ‘dark patterns’ we see in other places aren’t intentional in the sense that the people behind them want to intentionally do harm to their customers, they are intentional in the sense that the people behind them have an outcome they want and follow whichever methods they find to get them that outcome.

Social media feeds have a ‘dark pattern’ to promote content that makes people angry, but the social media companies don’t have an intention to make people angry. They want people to use their site more, and they program their algorithms to promote content that has been demonstrated to drive more engagement. It is an emergent property that promoting content that has generated engagement ends up promoting anger inducing content.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#34
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 'emergent' in the sense that it just happens; it's a byproduct of human feedback, and it can be neutralized.

But isn’t the problem that if an LLM ‘neutralizes’ its sycophantic responses, then people will be driven to use other LLMs that don’t? This is like suggesting a bar should help solve alcoholism by serving non-alcoholic beer to people who order too much. It won’t solve alcoholism, it will just make the bar go out of business.

> This is like suggesting a bar should help solve alcoholism by serving non-alcoholic beer to people who order too much. It won’t solve alcoholism, it will just make the bar go out of business.

Solving such common coordination problems is the whole point we have regulations and countries.

It is illegal to sell alcohol to visibly drunk people in my country.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#35
post #2

"Dark pattern" implies intentionality; that's not a technicality, it's the whole reason we have the term. This article is mostly about how sycophancy is an emergent property of LLMs. It's also 7 months old.

I feel like it's a popular opinion (I've seen it many times) that it's intentional with the reasoning that it does much better on human-in-the-loop benchmarks (e.g. lm arena) when it's sycophantic. (I have no knowledge of whether or not this is true)

It was an accident at first. Not so much now.

OpenAI has explicitly curbed sycophancy in GPT-5 with specialized training - the whole 4o debacle shook them - and then they re-tuned GPT-5 for more sycophancy when the users complained.

I do believe that OpenAI's entire personality tuning team should be fired into the sun, and this is a major reason why.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#36

Lots of research shows post-training dumbs down the models but no one listens because people are too lazy to learn proper prompt programming and would rather have a model already understand the concept of a conversation.

Some distributional collapse is good in terms of making these things reliable tools. The creativity and divergent thinking does take a hit, but humans are better at this anyhow so I view it as a net W.

This. A default LLM is "do whatever seems to fit the circumstances". An LLM that was RLVR'd heavily? "Do whatever seems to work in those circumstances".

Very much a must for many long term tasks and complex tasks.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same way we used GPT-3. "the following is a conversation between the user and the assistant. ..."

Or just: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 Or: The first president of the united

And that's better? Isn't that just SMS autocomplete?

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some distributional collapse is good in terms of making these things reliable tools. The creativity and divergent thinking does take a hit, but humans are better at this anyhow so I view it as a net W.

This. A default LLM is "do whatever seems to fit the circumstances". An LLM that was RLVR'd heavily? "Do whatever seems to work in those circumstances". Very much a must for many long term tasks and complex tasks.

[dead]

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#40
post #2

"Dark pattern" implies intentionality; that's not a technicality, it's the whole reason we have the term. This article is mostly about how sycophancy is an emergent property of LLMs. It's also 7 months old.

"Dark pattern" implies bad for users but good for the provider. Mens rea was never a requirement.
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