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KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

blogs.kde.org

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Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#31

Post by hulitu »

diath wrote: post #14
eviks wrote: post #8

Oh the downplaying > In certain cases, 3rd-party applications doing specialized tasks like taking screenshots In what way is this copy&paste-like staple of general computing some "specialized" task? Will the new opportunities include reaching "specialized" feature parity? > In the longer term, this change opens up new opportunities for features, optimizations, and speed of development.

It's actually wild that they're trying to sell lack of basic desktop features as "security features". Try explaining to an average person that when they are playing a game and want to capture a cool moment to share on Discord with their friends that by design the window server they are using will not let them do that and it's "for their own good". Like God forbid I want my computer to be actually usable. We had the s…

> It's actually wild that they're trying to sell lack of basic desktop features as "security features".

They copied from the masters: Google and Microsoft. Gone are the days when KDE was years before Windows.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#32

Post by devl547 »

ErroneousBosh wrote: post #26

Oh, that's a shame, just when I thought KDE was looking quite good. Back to Xorg and Gnome then, because I need accelerated graphics. A very basic functional test, with NVidia drivers 580.95: Gnome and Xorg - Minecraft with a heavyish shader gives 60fps, Kerbal Space Program gives 60fps, DaVinci Resolve works KDE and Wayland - Minecraft with the same shader gives 4fps, KSP gives 2fps, DaVinci Resolve does not work Gn…

>NVidia

Angry Linus noises...

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#33

Post by Kuraj »

eddyb wrote: post #11
eviks wrote: post #8

Oh the downplaying > In certain cases, 3rd-party applications doing specialized tasks like taking screenshots In what way is this copy&paste-like staple of general computing some "specialized" task? Will the new opportunities include reaching "specialized" feature parity? > In the longer term, this change opens up new opportunities for features, optimizations, and speed of development.

If you're not familiar, the way X11 works is comparable to "multiplayer notepad" for your pixels ("multiplayer MSPaint"?). All your monitors are combined into a large canvas where every pixel can be written and read by any X11 client. Screenshots (and screen sharing) could be silently performed with zero user feedback (or any good way to even detect when apps might be doing this maliciously, AFAIK). This is one of th…

> All your monitors are combined into a large canvas where every pixel can be written and read by any X11 client.

Heh. I learned this hard way when trying to set up multiple monitors with different refresh rates

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#34

Post by ErroneousBosh »

devl547 wrote: post #32
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #26

Oh, that's a shame, just when I thought KDE was looking quite good. Back to Xorg and Gnome then, because I need accelerated graphics. A very basic functional test, with NVidia drivers 580.95: Gnome and Xorg - Minecraft with a heavyish shader gives 60fps, Kerbal Space Program gives 60fps, DaVinci Resolve works KDE and Wayland - Minecraft with the same shader gives 4fps, KSP gives 2fps, DaVinci Resolve does not work Gn…

>NVidia Angry Linus noises...

They make the only accelerated graphics cards supported on Linux.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#35

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

w4rh4wk5 wrote: post #18
diath wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually wild that they're trying to sell lack of basic desktop features as "security features". Try explaining to an average person that when they are playing a game and want to capture a cool moment to share on Discord with their friends that by design the window server they are using will not let them do that and it's "for their own good". Like God forbid I want my computer to be actually usable. We had the s…

I'd say it's completely irresponsible to not have such features, claiming it's about security, rather than implementing it behind a permission system that puts the end-user in charge.

It is implemented behind a permission system. KScreenshot works perfectly fine and so will most of the applications using PipeWire I guess, same that screen captures.

KDE is merely saying that some applications will have to be updated to use it so all of the current screenshot applications won't work out of the box.

No idea of why some commenters here are implying screenshots don't work in Wayland. It seems their knowledge is somehow stuck at the first proof of concept ten years ago.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#36

Post by array_key_first »

estimator7292 wrote: post #28

I love Wayland. I just absolutely love hard-rebooting my computer twice a day. Oh, need to walk away from the desk? Better switch into a TTY before unplugging the dock so I can force restart SDDM when it crashes. Oh no! Walked out of WiFi range? Your DE is hard frozen and the only operable button is the power button. Wayland truly saves me so much time at work. It's forced me to re-up my ctrl+s reflex. Now I never lo…

Nobody is developing x.org because it's a hot mess. It's just been half-baked solutions smacked on top of each other. That's why hardware acceleration barely works and artifacts are just a fact of life.

It's just that Wayland is newer, it's that x.org is a dead end and has been for many decades. If other people want to develop it, then by all means. But they're not, and ultimately I can't put a gun to someone's head and force them to work on a codebase. So here we are.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#38

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

StillBored wrote: post #29
eddyb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what was the screenshot feature of X11? In case I wasn't clear enough, there was never a screenshot feature . Any X11 client could read any pixel written by any other X11 client. > Have all the best or most popular apps been updated to ensure no disruption? I am not familiar with DE-agnostic "screenshot apps" for Linux, they always seemed more common on other OSes, and I've always used the DE-specific apps (whic…

> In case I wasn't clear enough, there was never a screenshot feature. Any X11 client could read any pixel written by any other X11 client. Which is a load of FUD, the X11 security extensions from (checks google) 1996, restrict this.

The 1996 extension had severe limitations. Untrusted clients have no clipboard, but also no GPU acceleration at all and other features were barely tested using it so it was somewhat random if they would work. It breaks a ton of applications and was therefore used by approximately no one.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#39

Post by StillBored »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #38
StillBored wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In case I wasn't clear enough, there was never a screenshot feature. Any X11 client could read any pixel written by any other X11 client. Which is a load of FUD, the X11 security extensions from (checks google) 1996, restrict this.

The 1996 extension had severe limitations. Untrusted clients have no clipboard, but also no GPU acceleration at all and other features were barely tested using it so it was somewhat random if they would work. It breaks a ton of applications and was therefore used by approximately no one.

Ok, so instead of a couple UAC style prompts for screen readers, macro recording, desktop sharing, etc, and some tweaks to GDK, we got what? An entire new backend GDK windowing system, and a pile of broken applications? And its been decades?

And its not like actual flaws people found couldn't be fixed.

There is a word for this.

Re: KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

#40

Post by Suppafly »

hxorr wrote: post #3

What I am uncomfortable with is the inability to run Wayland on older video hardware. X11 will happily run with Vesa driver on older hardware which no longer has functional 3D accelerated drivers. What is the way forward for the retro community to run a modern Wayland system on older hardware? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in or correct me

>What is the way forward for the retro community to run a modern Wayland system on older hardware?

I'm curious why that's something that should happen. Shouldn't the 'retro community' be happy with retro software and not expect cutting edge software to work on their hardware?

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