Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#31

Post by vijayr » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 2:39 PM UTC

digitalengineer wrote: post #21

michaelochurch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[redacted snark] You are right that it's often tactically the wrong decision to post about an ongoing dispute. I will give you that. I'd be surprised if any attorney would recommend for her to post on Quora about the termination while the suit was ongoing. However, this one-sided "professionalism" whereby people are expected to keep the secrets of employers who fuck them over is disgusting. That expectation exists be…

You are referring to people being slavish and excessively subservient to authority figures? I wasn't looking at it that way. I was merely thinking she would like to work somewhere else again. The way she publicly played this makes her look unprofessional. If you have a feeling you're being fucked over, make a case, collect the evidence and by all means, break the news. But don't go all emotional and start posting on…

Who is right or wrong (she or the firm), it is hard for outsiders to decide without knowing the facts. But what is very very sad is the fact that much of the "civilized" society accepts that:

1. Employers can treat their employees like crap, not many people seem to be bothered by it. But when a employee says anything even remotely bad, suddenly he/she is unprofessional, immature etc

2. In the case of whistle blowers, we spend more time arguing the behavior of the whistle blower (aka the "correct" way of whistle blowing) than actually looking into the allegations.

So in short, even if I (the whistle blower) have a legitimate case (racism, ageism, sexism...whatever), then I am expected to act totally "professional" if I ever expect to be taken seriously.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#32

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #28

michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I don't think we'll ever know whether she's right or wrong. She could quite possibly be in the wrong, but I increasingly doubt it the more I read. Here's why: her firm acted like a massive dick. First, making employees sign a non-disparagement, arbitration-only agreement (except as a term in a severance negotiation) is vile and should be illegal. You're effectively threatening to fire someone (or rescind an offer) if…

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#33

Post by ryanmolden » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #26

digitalengineer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely correct. Ive seen local whistle blowers get seriously mangled for decades... The info user "michaelochurch" (top) just provided makes me think the company she used to work for is a huge bag of dicks. Her claims might well be relevant. At the end of the day her reputation (and future) could well be seriously damaged. You could ask yourself if that was worth it...

The danger of he-said/she-said contests is that peoples' perceptions (myself included) end up being biased heavily by their own attitudes toward power. This can be described as an emotional left/right that may or may not correlate with economics. (Many libertarians are emotionally leftist-- they despise centralized power-- but economically toward the right. They just happen to see governments as more of an enemy than…

>if your ex-company says you weren't a leader and you say you were, they're often taken to be right and you're wrong

This is true, the best solution is normally to go elsewhere and succeed. Whether that means at another company or on your own. People tend to have a lens through which they understand the world, once they have slotted you it is over (see: bozo bit, various cognitive biases, etc...)

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#34

Post by Surio » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:06 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #20

digitalengineer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it exactly: "They feel that they have been mistreated... It's a feeling and you can never control how someone feels. At her level I would expect her to be professional about it and communicate within the team about her feelings. I don't think suing and posting on Quora helps her or the company involved. That was 100% "feelings" as well. Not professional.

[redacted snark] You are right that it's often tactically the wrong decision to post about an ongoing dispute. I will give you that. I'd be surprised if any attorney would recommend for her to post on Quora about the termination while the suit was ongoing. However, this one-sided "professionalism" whereby people are expected to keep the secrets of employers who fuck them over is disgusting. That expectation exists be…

>> That expectation exists because there's a power relationship

You have it succinctly well worded and this point summarises most if not all workplace issues overall. As in a shoe-bite, where only the wearer knows how uncomfortable the whole feeling is, it is only when a person is stuck at the wrong end of a power relationship when they can (truly) empathise with someone else in that situation.

As I remember, Jacques Matthiej's article on FU money also spends some time pointing this factor out and how FU money inverts/negates this relationship to a large extent. Good point.

>> However, this one-sided "professionalism" whereby people are expected to keep the secrets of employers

^^ +1 that! I think the number of times people overlook this cannot be understated. Just a casual once-over of the most benign employee contract being worded nowadays will show how much it is stacked heavily against the employee (anecdotal observation from a few cases)

You're on song! :-)

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#35

Post by Surio » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:14 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #31

digitalengineer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are referring to people being slavish and excessively subservient to authority figures? I wasn't looking at it that way. I was merely thinking she would like to work somewhere else again. The way she publicly played this makes her look unprofessional. If you have a feeling you're being fucked over, make a case, collect the evidence and by all means, break the news. But don't go all emotional and start posting on…

Who is right or wrong (she or the firm), it is hard for outsiders to decide without knowing the facts. But what is very very sad is the fact that much of the "civilized" society accepts that: 1. Employers can treat their employees like crap, not many people seem to be bothered by it. But when a employee says anything even remotely bad, suddenly he/she is unprofessional, immature etc 2. In the case of whistle blowers,…

I know what you mean. There was another article yesterday about racism in a company (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4603611 Note: The OP itself returns a 404 now!), and AFAIR most of the comments seems to debate and revolve around those two points for a very long time. It would have been hilarious if it wasn't sad. :-/

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#36

Post by jcampbell1 » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #30

tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

The problem is what happens when all employers follow suit with this arbitration garbage and it becomes standard practice, which it is becoming. Employers have all the leverage in these cases.

What is the problem with arbitration? If I were Ms Pao, I wouldn't want a jury trial. Jurors hate people who they think are looking for a handout.

Here is how it is going to play out: "KPCB is an investment fund, meaning we take money from groups such as a teacher's union retirement fund, and invest it in companies. The returns from those investments are paid back to the investor, ultimately helping secure the retirements of teachers. We pay our employees exceptionally well, because the stakes are so high. Small investment decisions can impact the bottom line of the fund by many millions of dollars".

Juror thinks: "I am not going to take from school teachers to pay Ms Pao because her feelings were hurt. I am sorry some guy harassed her, but that doesn't mean she wins the lottery. Hell, I'd let my boss kick me in groin every day if it meant I got her salary.".

Jury trials are a bad idea when the jury can't relate to the victim. Getting a fair jury is almost impossible in a sexual harassment case.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#37

Post by jamesaguilar » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:39 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I don't think we'll ever know whether she's right or wrong. She could quite possibly be in the wrong, but I increasingly doubt it the more I read. Here's why: her firm acted like a massive dick. First, making employees sign a non-disparagement, arbitration-only agreement (except as a term in a severance negotiation) is vile and should be illegal. You're effectively threatening to fire someone (or rescind an offer) if…

How is It "under duress?" there are plenty of firms you can work for that don't have these terms.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#38

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #32

tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#39

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 3:52 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #28

michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I don't think we'll ever know whether she's right or wrong. She could quite possibly be in the wrong, but I increasingly doubt it the more I read. Here's why: her firm acted like a massive dick. First, making employees sign a non-disparagement, arbitration-only agreement (except as a term in a severance negotiation) is vile and should be illegal. You're effectively threatening to fire someone (or rescind an offer) if…

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#40

Post by cube13 » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:06 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #20

digitalengineer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it exactly: "They feel that they have been mistreated... It's a feeling and you can never control how someone feels. At her level I would expect her to be professional about it and communicate within the team about her feelings. I don't think suing and posting on Quora helps her or the company involved. That was 100% "feelings" as well. Not professional.

[redacted snark] You are right that it's often tactically the wrong decision to post about an ongoing dispute. I will give you that. I'd be surprised if any attorney would recommend for her to post on Quora about the termination while the suit was ongoing. However, this one-sided "professionalism" whereby people are expected to keep the secrets of employers who fuck them over is disgusting. That expectation exists be…

But at her level, as a partner to the firm, she would be expected to deal with litigation. So yes, her behavior here is absolutely a professional issue. Her Quora post is such an insanely bad idea that it does cast some doubt as to her professional behavior, and how she would react in a similar high stress situation involving a lawsuit.

I don't have a problem with the fact that she filed the suit. She clearly felt discriminated and harassed enough to file it. It's fine to drop a line to journalists with the unsealed court documents, and build your public opinion case that way.