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Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#31

Post by toyg »

Nitramp wrote: post #27
toyg wrote: post #8

A one-off $10K fee per hire is chump change, compared to the alternative: if your H1-B costs 50K per year + 10K one-off, he's still much cheaper than a US-based developer who wants 60K per-year -- and that's not exactly the top going rate. Corporations understand Marx much better than workers ever did.

You're neglecting the salary of the employee that you hired in that, aren't you? The 60k are on top of the salary you're paying, which would typically be comparable to the US-based developer's. Companies don't hire people on H1B to save money, but because they are starving for talent. EDIT: Sorry, didn't understand that you referred to the employee's salary with the 50K. Are you assuming that H1B employees are payed…

What? - US developer salary: 60k per year (cheap areas etc etc). Over three years: 180k. - Foreign visa: 50k per year + 10k one off. Over three years: 160k.

And of course, the foreigner is locked into the company for X years, whereas a local can piss off after three months.

Note: I say that as an Italian-born UK resident who looked into the US visa system and found it, er, suboptimal for everyone involved except corporations.

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#32

Post by toyg »

joshz wrote: post #26
toyg wrote: post #8

A one-off $10K fee per hire is chump change, compared to the alternative: if your H1-B costs 50K per year + 10K one-off, he's still much cheaper than a US-based developer who wants 60K per-year -- and that's not exactly the top going rate. Corporations understand Marx much better than workers ever did.

Microsoft doesn't pay that low. Here's[1] some data from 2 years back. Friend of mine got over 100k last year, they treat H1-B holders well. [1] http://goo.gl/P0UCj

And what's the cost of a developer leaving after 6 months for better opportunities? Periodic raises are part of overall costs, and again a locked-in visa-holder is cheaper to "maintain" in that regard.

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#33

Post by lusr »

mseebach wrote: post #25
lusr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An I-485 is "Application to Register Permanent Residence or Adjust Status". You can only apply for an I-485 after 5 years of residency. That means after 5.5 years you may freely change jobs - to a similar position. For those 5.5 years you're still vulnerable to discriminatory treatment. I'm not sure if "similar position" means you could form your own company. If I were 21 again - no brainer. Unfortunately I'm nearly…

As far as I can tell, you can submit the I-140 immediately after arrival, processing takes about 6 months if you don't apply for "premium processing". Then you can apply for I-485, which then needs to be pending for 6 months - ie. you're only stuck for a year. But I could be wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Permanent_Residen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_date

Hmmm if that's the way it works that's a very positive change, although it's very different from other countries (where you can only apply for permanent residency after a number of years of actual residency) so I wonder if we're seeing the proper picture here. Finding simplified requirements is pretty difficult.

Your first link does indicate that the backlog for EB-3 category applications is 6-9 years. So in that time you presumably must be working and wouldn't e.g. be able to start your own company (which is something I'd want to do by age 35), and you'd still be at the mercy of companies who know you're an emigrant so they can pay you less. It doesn't look like you can apply for residency in the EB-2 category as a programmer unless a masters or above is a requirement for the job (i.e. Google is hiring you).

Overall the situation for older migrants is still not very good and while the US would be my first choice it still seems better to emigrate elsewhere or to wait until I'm more established and I qualify under a category with a much shorter backlog (after which it's another 5 years for naturalisation, whereas in other countries you're looking at 5-7 years TOTAL).

One serious potential problem: apparently the old employer can revoke your I-140 (if you change companies) and you lose your priority date if that happens. [1] Also all of this assume your sponsor is going to file the I-140 on your behalf. What if they promise to do it and then don't? You're still at their mercy.

[1] http://www.immigration.com/faq/us-green-card/form-i-140#t101...

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#34

Post by wheelerwj »

mseebach wrote: post #22
wheelerwj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool, so MS can send 6000 people to harvard for a CS degree while having them work on some menial code/internship in the mean time.

Yes, that's at least 12 times more expensive then the $10k.

but its half as much as the yearly cost of a hiring a new dev.

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#35

Post by raverbashing »

toyg wrote: post #31
Nitramp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're neglecting the salary of the employee that you hired in that, aren't you? The 60k are on top of the salary you're paying, which would typically be comparable to the US-based developer's. Companies don't hire people on H1B to save money, but because they are starving for talent. EDIT: Sorry, didn't understand that you referred to the employee's salary with the 50K. Are you assuming that H1B employees are payed…

What? - US developer salary: 60k per year (cheap areas etc etc). Over three years: 180k. - Foreign visa: 50k per year + 10k one off. Over three years: 160k. And of course, the foreigner is locked into the company for X years, whereas a local can piss off after three months. Note: I say that as an Italian-born UK resident who looked into the US visa system and found it, er, suboptimal for everyone involved except corp…

Oh, so you've looked into the H1-B system

But do you know anyone that's actually employed like that?

I know several

- None of them get payed less than their colleagues

- They are usually already at the "top of the chain", it's difficult for new/better job opportunities to show up. Inside the US it may be more difficult, surely, but they have no problem leaving the job and going elsewhere (and H1-B is a little less restrictive in swapping jobs than some work permits in Europe)

One of the main issues today is the time it takes to apply for a Green Card, some of them are in their nth H1-B renewal now with little perspective of getting a Green Card

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#36

Post by andrewcooke »

toyg wrote: post #8

A one-off $10K fee per hire is chump change, compared to the alternative: if your H1-B costs 50K per year + 10K one-off, he's still much cheaper than a US-based developer who wants 60K per-year -- and that's not exactly the top going rate. Corporations understand Marx much better than workers ever did.

marx is not synonymous with arithmetic (or even basic bookkeeping).

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#37

Post by blinkingled »

toyg wrote: post #29
SeckinJohn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not legal to underpay H1Bs. They literally should not be able to fill those positions with Americans if they are complaining about this.

I'm curious to know which sort of rocket science Microsoft does that is not taught at US universities. Of course they are unable to fill positions at a given salary level . It's quite hard to find tomato-pickers at slave-like wages.

How many Comp Sci or related discipline students do the US universities graduate every year? How much is the demand? How many of those graduates are from other countries and need VISA to work?

How do you know what skills Microsoft needs and why do you assume they pay slave wages?

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#38

Post by seppo0010 »

beedogs wrote: post #21

It's utterly fucked how restrictive and exploitative the US immigration system really is. It cost me about $5000 of my own money and a year and a half of my own time to become a permanent resident of Australia, with no advanced degree and no cash reserve needed. That route is literally impossible for potential U.S. immigrants. You either have to marry your way in, play the greencard lottery, have a PhD, or buy your w…

The H1-B is not tied to a single employer. But it only allows one month in case of lay off.

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#39

Post by barrkel »

toyg wrote: post #29
SeckinJohn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not legal to underpay H1Bs. They literally should not be able to fill those positions with Americans if they are complaining about this.

I'm curious to know which sort of rocket science Microsoft does that is not taught at US universities. Of course they are unable to fill positions at a given salary level . It's quite hard to find tomato-pickers at slave-like wages.

I don't think you're fully informed. Sometimes it's difficult to get qualified applicants at all, at any salary level. A lot of developers are more interested in the specifics of the job, product, company etc. than the salary (once it meets a certain minimum floor); and for other jobs, the specific knowledge and experience needed is very scarce. If there are 20 people qualified for a job and 21 open positions, no salary level is going to fill all the positions.

I had a H-1B visa once upon a time, but I never moved to the US. The company wanted me to, but I preferred London to Santa Cruz. Didn't stop me working for the company remotely, paid out of their UK sales office. Now I don't know what proportion of H-1Bs are like that - a global search to fill a local position - but it's definitely non-zero.

(The reason I'm pushing back on this is because I don't want HN to be a happy home for the same sad sack of devs Slashdot hosted when I last frequented there some years ago; "dey took our jerbs" was a constant refrain any time H-1B came up.)

Re: Microsoft: 'To fill 6,000 jobs, we'll pay $10K per visa'

#40

Post by blinkingled »

raverbashing wrote: post #35
toyg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? - US developer salary: 60k per year (cheap areas etc etc). Over three years: 180k. - Foreign visa: 50k per year + 10k one off. Over three years: 160k. And of course, the foreigner is locked into the company for X years, whereas a local can piss off after three months. Note: I say that as an Italian-born UK resident who looked into the US visa system and found it, er, suboptimal for everyone involved except corp…

Oh, so you've looked into the H1-B system But do you know anyone that's actually employed like that? I know several - None of them get payed less than their colleagues - They are usually already at the "top of the chain", it's difficult for new/better job opportunities to show up. Inside the US it may be more difficult, surely, but they have no problem leaving the job and going elsewhere (and H1-B is a little less re…

I worked on a H1B for 9 years before getting my Green Card and I saw two types of people working on H1B - people that were adequate for their jobs for which the company did not find enough people (qualified ones not the under/overqualified) and extraordinary people with specific skills in high demand. Both class were paid reasonably well, above average salaries.
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