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As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

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Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#31

Post by CalChris »

maebert wrote: post #21
bloak wrote: post #20

Apparently there are several, significantly different versions of "The picture of Dorian Gray". I'm not sure which one I've read, or which one I should read. Any suggestions?

They're all great, but the 2012 "The Uncensored Picture of Dorian Gray" is the closest to the original script before the editor cut out things that he deemed... checks notes... "too gay". It restores parts that were cut, and essentially bans chapter 3 and some other digressions on art history that Wilde added as a literary Beard to the footnotes - still there to read, but set in context) It's not a huge different hon…

That’s enough of an excuse for me to reread it. Along with Room With A View, two books I laughed on every page.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#32

Post by KaiserPro »

retrac wrote: post #23
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #4

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male…

> But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic love. Because in that time such expressions were often permissible. I've seen the t…

I think the other thing that's not immediately obvious to modern readers is that men sleeping together _could_ be seen as something childish. Boys at boarding school had "attachments" that they were expected to grow out of and marry a nice young woman.

Its probably better to see it like cocaine use. In posh circles everyone does it, and so long as you don't show it to the unwashed public, you're probably fine. However if you are caught by the police, or someone wants to take revenge, then letting slip that you're on coke is enough to get you ostracised.

Moreover, if poor people do it, then its a moral failing (see crack addict)

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#33

Post by KaiserPro »

I tried reading it when I was younger, and I couldn't get past the first two pages. Hes a wordy motherfuck that Wilde bloke.

However, I did get an audio book version of it, which meant I could actually enjoy and finish it.

THe thing that struck me is that yes the painting is a large part of the book, but so is food. The sheer amount of self hate that was expressed through clothing and food towards the end of the book was surprising to me.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#34

Post by s1mplicissimus »

inglor_cz wrote: post #28
Insanity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films were made.

Sam does not look gay to me. He is awkward around girls, but seems to be attracted to them. Both Bilbo and Frodo are a bit gay-ish indeed, or possibly asexual (neither ever marries or even has any romantic interest, both seem to be artsy), but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society

Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;)

IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who needs Sam to progress or save him - but Frodo's story doesn't have him do big efforts to accommodate/help Sam. It always felt a bit like a count to peasant relationship to me in this regard (as probably Tolkien would have idolized it). Definitely not one on equal footing.

Another dimension/reading I find exciting is that Sam & Frodo are a split up character, where Sam represents the physical part of existence and Frodo represents the mental/psychological part. Even above the regular "hobbits obsessed with food", Sam brings the seasoning packet to make roast chicken to Mordor which cracks Frodo up, does the cooking along the way. Frodo's journey on the other hand is marked by "suffering from inside" - the witch kings spiritual wound and the pull of the ring. Frodo's intellect affords him shrewdness and planning, but in the end Sam has to carry him to the forge, because Frodo is too weighed down by his inner life. Does make for a nice metaphor I guess.

Anyway that was some thoughts of mine

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#35

Post by KaiserPro »

inglor_cz wrote: post #11
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #4

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male…

The fates of Wilde and Turing are two big black stains on the history of the UK (not the only ones, of course). Turing even more, as by 1950, the society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal.

> society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal.

I'm not actually sure it was an entirely religious thing. It seems like it was an amendment tacked onto a bill that would protect girls from sexual exploitation by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re

specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment

The conflation of sex and religion I think its probably a mistake in this instance.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#36

Post by inglor_cz »

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #34
inglor_cz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam does not look gay to me. He is awkward around girls, but seems to be attracted to them. Both Bilbo and Frodo are a bit gay-ish indeed, or possibly asexual (neither ever marries or even has any romantic interest, both seem to be artsy), but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;) IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who…

Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo.

The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind, more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything quite like that, and Sam only for a short time.

I don't think Frodo is in any condition to help others much. He has enough problems rising up every morning and walking again.

BTW I just love nerding out on HN.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#37

Post by inglor_cz »

KaiserPro wrote: post #35
inglor_cz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fates of Wilde and Turing are two big black stains on the history of the UK (not the only ones, of course). Turing even more, as by 1950, the society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal.

> society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal. I'm not actually sure it was an entirely religious thing. It seems like it was an amendment tacked onto a bill that would protect girls from sexual exploitation by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment The conflation of sex and…

I am not really well-versed in British legal history. I was under the impression that the original Buggery Act was motivated religiously, and that Wilde was prosecuted under that Act (maybe amended).

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#39

Post by gooseus »

drivebyhooting wrote: post #27
Insanity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films were made.

Sam is loyal and devoted to Frodo, but there is zero romance between them. I don’t see how one could read that in the book. Sam even marries Rosy and has umpteen children. Is Gollum gay for Frodo because he caressed his knees while on the path of Cirith Ungol?

I can't help but agree having read the books umpteenth times... even in retrospect I find it more likely that Tolkien added Rosy into the narrative simply to make it clear that Sam was a heterosexual and that Frodo was merely an asexual eccentric like Bilbo.

I don't think there is any problem or harm in reading them as bi or gay, but I'd love to read a better case for Tolkien having written them with that intention. Am I forgetting any character(s) from The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales that were more obviously coded as gay or any other statements by Tolkien that would point to this as even a remote possibility?

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#40

Post by mr_toad »

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #34
inglor_cz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam does not look gay to me. He is awkward around girls, but seems to be attracted to them. Both Bilbo and Frodo are a bit gay-ish indeed, or possibly asexual (neither ever marries or even has any romantic interest, both seem to be artsy), but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;) IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who…

> where Sam represents the physical part of existence and Frodo represents the mental/psychological part.

English classism in a nutshell.

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