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Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

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Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#31

Post by ryandrake »

lysace wrote: post #15
tekla wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to work pretty well most of the time w/ souls involved. Works better than most websites on hard lines.

The canonical counter-example against voice/audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI JFK controller tries to communicate with Air China 981

One of the YouTube commenters contributed some much-needed nuance. JFK Ground added to the confusion by repeatedly refusing to use standard phraseology, and failed to maintain professionalism, getting audibly angry and impatient. Both sides of the radio conversation had problems.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#32

Post by goblin89 »

jvanderbot wrote: post #22
goblin89 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: They were handed off to departures before tower’s traffic warning. The near-collision occurred in the middle of tower-departures handoff. Tower was warning them of traffic in hopes they were still on the frequency but they probably weren’t, and they noticed traffic just before they contacted departures. On ATC side, maybe departures could have been more proactive and warn AA of traffic together with tower. On A…

They said they had traffic in sight in response. As in "yes I see them". I believe their avoidance maneuver was a climb change.

If “in response” means replying back to tower on tower’s frequency, then no. After the lady on tower frequency told them about traffic (twice), they came in on departures frequency (it was a fresh contact, they started with “good afternoon, American 4 with you”) and said they have traffic in sight.

Edited after I rewatched the video:

1. Tower handed them off to departures.

2. They said bye and stopped listening to tower.

3. ITA veered left.

4. Tower noticed it and warned them, hoping they are still listening.

5. They were evidently not listening to tower anymore, and did not contact departures yet, when they noticed traffic themselves.

6. They greeted departures saying they see traffic, and veered left.

Later at 2:45 American said tower didn’t give them a heads-up. The fact that departures asked them about it could mean that departures thought they were still listening to tower.

Pretty sure the pilots have a second radio and could be listening to both departures and tower during handoff, but it’s unclear whether that’s routine. If they did it, they would have heard tower’s original warning.

> I believe their avoidance maneuver was a climb change.

According to the chart in the video, AA veered to the left. This maneuver started around 1:51 in the video, which is at least 10 seconds after tower warned them of traffic and instructed to stop the climb for the first time around 1:38.

I don’t know if they stopped the climb around 1:38. If we know for sure that they stopped the climb around 1:38 when tower told them so, then there is a good chance they were indeed still listening to tower and heard the traffic warning. If that’s the case, maybe they thought that stopping the climb 10 seconds earlier was insufficient (and tower was wrong about it).

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#33

Post by 12_throw_away »

tekla wrote: post #26
12_throw_away wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? Just in a car, we know that talking to someone in the car itself has adverse effects on situational awareness, and talking to someone on a phone is much worse than that. But even after all the research and training that goes into human factors in aviation ... we can't do better than confusing, poor quality, AM band party lines during critical phases of flight?

Would you rather them read text messages on their iPads?

Oh of course, those are the only two options: either an AM band party line or text messages on an iPad. Nothing else is possible.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#34

Post by Kim_Bruning »

IshKebab wrote: post #7

Kind of blows my mind how primitive this whole system still is. Audio quality is really bad. They're sending instructions by voice. The way they know who is speaking is by just saying their callsign with every message. There's got to be a better solution surely?

For starters, ADS-B is being rolled out, allows planes to 'see' each other and respond in real time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Dependent_Surveillan...

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#35

Post by tekla »

12_throw_away wrote: post #33
tekla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather them read text messages on their iPads?

Oh of course, those are the only two options: either an AM band party line or text messages on an iPad. Nothing else is possible.

Open to suggestions. Keep in mind I've worked on Aircraft control systems and have a very strong opinion on reliability and crew management.

I also note that the budget isn't infinite nor do these aircraft like running electron apps.

Also note that not all (if not most) aircraft are not brand new and so would need all to be retrofitted and re-rerated w/ any new system and every single pilot retrained.

This requirement also includes systems for general aviation pilots and both to be able to sync with each other.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#36

Post by edoceo »

7thaccount wrote: post #16
pedalpete wrote: post #13

Is this significantly different from the near mid-air collisions that happen on a regular basis? The audio does an excellent job of showing a layperson how difficult it is to interpret and who's going wear based on sound, and then I had to go back through the video to see the turn. These people aren't being paid to do this right now? Is that right? I'm not American, but that's what I've heard.

Yeah. It's a super stressful job that doesn't pay well normally and now these people are having to drive Uber on the side to pay their mortgages and put food on the table. I'm definitely not flying until this is sorted out.

And maybe some time to ramp back up to pre-shit-show skill levels.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#38

Post by 12_throw_away »

tekla wrote: post #35
12_throw_away wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh of course, those are the only two options: either an AM band party line or text messages on an iPad. Nothing else is possible.

Open to suggestions. Keep in mind I've worked on Aircraft control systems and have a very strong opinion on reliability and crew management. I also note that the budget isn't infinite nor do these aircraft like running electron apps. Also note that not all (if not most) aircraft are not brand new and so would need all to be retrofitted and re-rerated w/ any new system and every single pilot retrained. This requiremen…

> Also note that not all (if not most) aircraft are not brand new and so would need all to be retrofitted and re-rerated w/ any new system and every single pilot retrained

Ah yes, I forgot, we never introduce new aircraft technology because it's too hard. Too bad we don't, it would be great to fit aircraft, with, say, anti-collision transponders and advanced ground proximity systems. Oh well, my mistake for even bringing it up.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#39

Post by sdh9 »

gosub100 wrote: post #23
goblin89 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: They were handed off to departures before tower’s traffic warning. The near-collision occurred in the middle of tower-departures handoff. Tower was warning them of traffic in hopes they were still on the frequency but they probably weren’t, and they noticed traffic just before they contacted departures. On ATC side, maybe departures could have been more proactive and warn AA of traffic together with tower. On A…

One theory in the comments was that ITA loaded the wrong departure in their computer and just flew it without noticing that they were on the wrong side of the airport and/or ATC's prior instructions contradicted the electronic plan.

They had the correct SID, but the wrong runway.

Re: Near mid-air collision at LAX between American Airlines and ITA [video]

#40

Post by sdh9 »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #34
IshKebab wrote: post #7

Kind of blows my mind how primitive this whole system still is. Audio quality is really bad. They're sending instructions by voice. The way they know who is speaking is by just saying their callsign with every message. There's got to be a better solution surely?

For starters, ADS-B is being rolled out, allows planes to 'see' each other and respond in real time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Dependent_Surveillan...

It’s been required in the US since 2020. But, ADS-B would not have played a factor in this incident.
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