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'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

ft.com

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Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#31

Post by ghaff »

maxerickson wrote: post #24
embedding-shape wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much does it cost a business to manage say 10K company cards, maybe even globally? Sounds like a huge hassle, compared to "Send us a photo of your lunch receipt each day then at the end of the month we reimburse you".

If it's daily, why not just do a per diem and forget about tracking it?

Costs differ by location. Formal per diems, even with some attempt to adjust, end up screwing employees who are in higher cost locations (and/or have higher standards). Which may be fine--or not.

But, to the degree that fraud becomes a real issue, it may be the simplest thing to do.

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#32

Post by embedding-shape »

trenchpilgrim wrote: post #28
embedding-shape wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> digital currencies - not crypto currencies Are those "digital currencies" not using cryptography? If so, they're a cryptocurrency, regardless how centralized or not they are. See Tether for an example of a centralized "cryptocurrency" (not "digital currency").

> Are those "digital currencies" not using cryptography? If so, they're a cryptocurrency, regardless how centralized or not they are. By this logic buying something on Amazon in USD, or doing a bank transfer from a Wells Fargo account to a Bank of America account, or paying a water bill is using a cryptocurrency hahaha

Is that really the basis of those transfers, or something that they're using? This is why it's kind of tiresome to even mention cryptocurrencies/blockchain, all the "assume good intentions" and "answer charitable" suddenly flies out the window.

Why is it that some topics just triggers some raw emotional feelings in people?

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#33

Post by trenchpilgrim »

embedding-shape wrote: post #20
trenchpilgrim wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer contracts with a vendor that manages them. It's not expensive or difficult anymore. Even individual consumers can mint "virtual cards" with different time-based or merchant-based spending policies and limits for free, since like five years ago now. ( https://www.capitalone.com/learn-grow/money-management/what-... )

> Even individual consumers can mint "virtual cards" with different spending policies (see Capital One Eno) for free. That's something else, isn't it? Or how do you pay with those at a typical POS terminal at a random lunch place?

You can add them to Google Wallet/Apple Pay. Useful for giving a family member a limited expense card, e.g. you can set up a "let my kid buy up to $X of food on weekends" card they can add to your phone.

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#34

Post by embedding-shape »

trenchpilgrim wrote: post #21
embedding-shape wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traditional banking already does this very well in most countries, through centralized systems with multiple redundant tracking and audit methods So how does traditional banking solve the very problem the submission article is about? Companies seem to say this is an issue today, some seeing 15% fraudulent receipts, if traditional banking did these things well, why are these companies still seeing these issue? Again…

In my employers case they issue everyone a company card that has expense policies built in (it literally won't let you spend outside of policy). If you need to do a personal card expense it needs multiple levels of approval.

Sounds like a OK solution and much better than letting cryptocurrencies infect every side of society.

Maybe the companies in the article complaining about the fraud isn't aware you can do something like that? Or is there something else stopping them from doing that? Why isn't everyone doing that if it solves the very problem outlined in the article?

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#35

Post by embedding-shape »

trenchpilgrim wrote: post #33
embedding-shape wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even individual consumers can mint "virtual cards" with different spending policies (see Capital One Eno) for free. That's something else, isn't it? Or how do you pay with those at a typical POS terminal at a random lunch place?

You can add them to Google Wallet/Apple Pay. Useful for giving a family member a limited expense card, e.g. you can set up a "let my kid buy up to $X of food on weekends" card they can add to your phone.

Huh, interesting stuff, didn't know about it. Thanks for explaining!

Any ideas why the companies in the article doesn't just do that to fight the fraud then?

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#36

Post by unlikelytomato »

embedding-shape wrote: post #5

I'd probably get hate for this or whatever, but things like this is why it's inevitable that businesses and governments will eventually force cryptocurrencies on people, because then purchases/expenses/bills and anything else can be tracked fully across the spectrum. I'm not for it, don't want it, but I can't help myself but to see that as the future, as fraud ramps up even more, gets cheaper and businesses feel they…

Alternatively, companies will just go back to corporate cards with very strict vendor rules. When vendor rules are not enough, they will go back to extremely tight per diem and simply not care of the expense was strictly real or not. I can't see any advantage to using a whole new currency and exchange that every vendor in the world is now going to have to support for this to be useful vs these simple measures.

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#37

Post by trenchpilgrim »

embedding-shape wrote: post #34
trenchpilgrim wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my employers case they issue everyone a company card that has expense policies built in (it literally won't let you spend outside of policy). If you need to do a personal card expense it needs multiple levels of approval.

Sounds like a OK solution and much better than letting cryptocurrencies infect every side of society. Maybe the companies in the article complaining about the fraud isn't aware you can do something like that? Or is there something else stopping them from doing that? Why isn't everyone doing that if it solves the very problem outlined in the article?

> Maybe the companies in the article complaining about the fraud isn't aware you can do something like that?

This is shockingly common in the business world. It's like, 40% of the reason the big consulting firms exist - to tell insular businesses that "hey, you can buy an off the shelf solution to this problem"

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#38

Post by trenchpilgrim »

embedding-shape wrote: post #35
trenchpilgrim wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can add them to Google Wallet/Apple Pay. Useful for giving a family member a limited expense card, e.g. you can set up a "let my kid buy up to $X of food on weekends" card they can add to your phone.

Huh, interesting stuff, didn't know about it. Thanks for explaining! Any ideas why the companies in the article doesn't just do that to fight the fraud then?

Replied in thread - they probably just don't know you can do it, because companies think in highly insular ways.

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#39

Post by jt2190 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #5

I'd probably get hate for this or whatever, but things like this is why it's inevitable that businesses and governments will eventually force cryptocurrencies on people, because then purchases/expenses/bills and anything else can be tracked fully across the spectrum. I'm not for it, don't want it, but I can't help myself but to see that as the future, as fraud ramps up even more, gets cheaper and businesses feel they…

Putting coercive governments aside, the cryptocurrency would need to allow for transaction reversals (a.k.a. “chargebacks”) like credit cards do today, and additionally need to have some kind of “know your customer” (KYC) capability, not just a public ledger that points to crypto wallet addresses but actual names and addresses, so that the “credit system” can identify fraudsters and, at minimum, mark them as such by lowering their credit score.

Re: 'Do not trust your eyes': AI generates surge in expense fraud

#40

Post by embedding-shape »

unlikelytomato wrote: post #36
embedding-shape wrote: post #5

I'd probably get hate for this or whatever, but things like this is why it's inevitable that businesses and governments will eventually force cryptocurrencies on people, because then purchases/expenses/bills and anything else can be tracked fully across the spectrum. I'm not for it, don't want it, but I can't help myself but to see that as the future, as fraud ramps up even more, gets cheaper and businesses feel they…

Alternatively, companies will just go back to corporate cards with very strict vendor rules. When vendor rules are not enough, they will go back to extremely tight per diem and simply not care of the expense was strictly real or not. I can't see any advantage to using a whole new currency and exchange that every vendor in the world is now going to have to support for this to be useful vs these simple measures.

> these simple measures

I'm not sure either, it's mostly a guess I guess, more than a prediction. But if companies/governments can get more tracking, usually that's the way they move.

So if the companies that are complaining in the article implements your simple measures, does that mean the fraud problem they're talking about have been solved already? That begs the question, why aren't they just doing that then?

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