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After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

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Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#31

Post by lostlogin »

u_sama wrote: post #7
jeromegv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! > then you visit the original country where it’s from and they themselves have nothing or very little left from that era. You seem to generalize quite a lot in order to validate your view point that everything stolen should stay stolen. Sometimes it's the entire opposite. It's not being shown anywhere, it's just hidden in a museum collection in the UK. In other ca…

> Syria 2011 > Lebanon 1970s > Algeria 1990s > Afghanistan 1990s A few simple examples of nations who have went through rather devastating wars and civil wars including Islamists who's main ideology is that anything pre-Islamic is to be destroyed as it might lead to heresy, and who go out of their way to destroy historical places and artifacts. And if not war, then the fact that the cultures of those areas traditiona…

> Even during WW2 the UK, Germany and France set out programs to saveguard historical cultural treasures in protected areas.

Did they though? That sounds revisionist.

Eg The Badeker raids in one direction, a Bomber Harris and everything he did in the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baedeker_Blitz

> A few simple examples of nations who have went through rather devastating wars and civil wars including Islamists who's main ideology is that anything pre-Islamic is to be destroyed as it might lead to heresy, and who go out of their way to destroy historical places and artifacts.

The Reformation shows that this isn’t just an Islamic trait. Plenty of religious artifacts, and location were destroyed.

> the middle east is stuck on an unresolved powder keg of issues

It is. And several of the key players in this are missing from your comment. The US, the UK, Russia and China. This isn’t a problem with undeveloped Islamic countries, it’s considerably broader than that.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#32

Post by lostlogin »

suddenlybananas wrote: post #9
jeromegv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! > then you visit the original country where it’s from and they themselves have nothing or very little left from that era. You seem to generalize quite a lot in order to validate your view point that everything stolen should stay stolen. Sometimes it's the entire opposite. It's not being shown anywhere, it's just hidden in a museum collection in the UK. In other ca…

>It's not being shown anywhere, it's just hidden in a museum collection in the UK. Are you under the impression that the British Museum does not show its Egyptian collections? >it's not particularly relevant to the local culture Ancient Egypt also has essentially nothing to do with the culture of most of Egypt, with the exception perhaps of the Copts.

This argument would be stronger if the Egyptians were displaying Stonehenge and a few long barrows.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#33

Post by krapp »

masfoobar wrote: post #22
gef wrote: post #2

I wonder if the British Museum will do the right thing and return previously stolen artefacts?

I'll admit that I might misunderstand the point but surely there is a gray area of what is considered "stolen" and what is "preserved" Humans or groups can be responsible for many foolish acts. Stealing is one of those traits. I am open to accepting this when referring to the British Museum. However, I am also open to groups of people DESTROYING historical items all because they do not share their culture or religiou…

>As a British man myself and interested in Ancient Egyptian mythology, I would be just as much heartbroken of ancient items being destroyed. You don't have to be an Egyptian who's lineage traces back to this historical times.

That's none of Britain's concern. How would you feel if Americans showed up and started breaking the angels off of Westminster Abbey or carting off Stonehenge because they didn't trust you to keep them SAFE? You'd probably riot.

The belief that you're entitled to another culture's knowledge and artifacts is colonialist thinking. They have the right to destroy their own culture if they want, you only have the right to ask and negotiate with them as peers. What Britain did in many cases wrt these artifacts was clearly theft.

And Europeans stripped the Colosseum for parts and the Church destroyed the artifacts of European pagan culture. You people really have no moral high ground to stand on.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#34

Post by pdabbadabba »

lostlogin wrote: post #29
pdabbadabba wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the word "stolen" here with a lot of conviction but, imho, not a lot of rigor. In what sense did people "own" the artifacts that the British removed from Egypt? Who owned them? If nobody owned them, how were they "stolen"? That's the weak version of the problem. The stronger version: how is it the case that Egypt, or Egyptians, today "own" something that has been in the British museum far longer than any…

If someone went to England and took the rocks from Stonehenge and carted them off to a museum overseas, that would surely be stealing?

Probably so. I imagine the U.K. has laws that make such artifacts the formal property of the state. Was this true for 19th century Egypt?

I think it was true, on some level, at the time the bust of Nefertiti was taken in the 1920s. Supposedly, the Germans nominally followed some sort of legal process for removing the artifact -- though perhaps with less-than-full transparency.

Perhaps there are other reasons to claim that Egyptian artifacts were 'stolen.' But I'm trying to have a conversation about what those might be since the subject is not as obvious to me as others seem to think it is.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#35

Post by lostlogin »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #34
lostlogin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone went to England and took the rocks from Stonehenge and carted them off to a museum overseas, that would surely be stealing?

Probably so. I imagine the U.K. has laws that make such artifacts the formal property of the state. Was this true for 19th century Egypt? I think it was true, on some level, at the time the bust of Nefertiti was taken in the 1920s. Supposedly, the Germans nominally followed some sort of legal process for removing the artifact -- though perhaps with less-than-full transparency. Perhaps there are other reasons to claim…

It seems likely that designating artifacts property of the state is something that happened as a result of looting/stealing/collecting in the past.

We see this happening now on a smaller scale with metal detecting and what happens with their finds.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#36

Post by Jedd »

lostlogin wrote: post #30
Jedd wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! I think you are misrepresenting GP & parent's comments. Yes, absolutely, totally, Brits have a well-deserved reputation of colonisation. But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? What moral right is exercised (o…

> But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? Has this ever been in doubt? With Egyptian artifacts, they’d go to Egypt, with looted Greek artifacts they’d go to Greece. With the heads of Māori warriors, New Zealand Maori. Are there any real world situations where it’s…

> Are there any real world situations where it’s confusing as to who they would be returned to?

Yes, many.

Artifacts whose creation predates the current dominant culture in a region (assuming nation state borders and names have morphed over the time), especially when that contemporary culture actively rejects those earlier cultures, are a prime example.

The Bamiyan Buddhas are a great example - or at least lead to a follow-up question to your question. If, say, the British Museum had transported artifacts of similar historical value (beauty, etc, whatever criteria you want to use) decades or centuries ago, but the ruling regime there now demanded their return, whilst making no secret of their intent to destroy those artifacts upon receipt -- what's would you advise the British Museum?

Beyond the dubious nature of geographical happenstance implying inarguable custodianship - another example of nuance to counter your 'everything is black and white' position would be around artifacts from pre-partition India (Pakistan), and who should own those, or more recently Yugoslav-era artifacts. There are myriad examples like these, of course.

Again, if you're happy to ignore the complexity and potential dubiousness of ancestry claims, or orthogonal religious / cultural values, etc - you're back to a geographical claim - 'there are people in roughly the same region as some different people, some time ago'.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#37

Post by suddenlybananas »

lostlogin wrote: post #30
Jedd wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! I think you are misrepresenting GP & parent's comments. Yes, absolutely, totally, Brits have a well-deserved reputation of colonisation. But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? What moral right is exercised (o…

> But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? Has this ever been in doubt? With Egyptian artifacts, they’d go to Egypt, with looted Greek artifacts they’d go to Greece. With the heads of Māori warriors, New Zealand Maori. Are there any real world situations where it’s…

Greek artifacts from Anatolia, should they go to Greece or Turkey?

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#38

Post by suddenlybananas »

lostlogin wrote: post #31
u_sama wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Syria 2011 > Lebanon 1970s > Algeria 1990s > Afghanistan 1990s A few simple examples of nations who have went through rather devastating wars and civil wars including Islamists who's main ideology is that anything pre-Islamic is to be destroyed as it might lead to heresy, and who go out of their way to destroy historical places and artifacts. And if not war, then the fact that the cultures of those areas traditiona…

> Even during WW2 the UK, Germany and France set out programs to saveguard historical cultural treasures in protected areas. Did they though? That sounds revisionist. Eg The Badeker raids in one direction, a Bomber Harris and everything he did in the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baedeker_Blitz > A few simple examples of nations who have went through rather devastating wars and civil wars including Islamists w…

>The Reformation

500 years ago.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#39

Post by lostlogin »

Jedd wrote: post #36
lostlogin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? Has this ever been in doubt? With Egyptian artifacts, they’d go to Egypt, with looted Greek artifacts they’d go to Greece. With the heads of Māori warriors, New Zealand Maori. Are there any real world situations where it’s…

> Are there any real world situations where it’s confusing as to who they would be returned to? Yes, many. Artifacts whose creation predates the current dominant culture in a region (assuming nation state borders and names have morphed over the time), especially when that contemporary culture actively rejects those earlier cultures, are a prime example. The Bamiyan Buddhas are a great example - or at least lead to a…

I argue that they should go back to where they were found.

I’m sure there are some examples where the location of the find is unknown, and yes, that would be a difficulty.

A lot of the heat would leave the debate if the blindingly obvious examples looting were resolved - The Elgin Marbles.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#40

Post by Jedd »

lostlogin wrote: post #39
Jedd wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any real world situations where it’s confusing as to who they would be returned to? Yes, many. Artifacts whose creation predates the current dominant culture in a region (assuming nation state borders and names have morphed over the time), especially when that contemporary culture actively rejects those earlier cultures, are a prime example. The Bamiyan Buddhas are a great example - or at least lead to a…

I argue that they should go back to where they were found. I’m sure there are some examples where the location of the find is unknown, and yes, that would be a difficulty. A lot of the heat would leave the debate if the blindingly obvious examples looting were resolved - The Elgin Marbles.

> I argue that they should go back to where they were found.

Yes, again you're conflating where with who, and that was the crux of my questions to you in the previous post.

Unknown source locations - are a bit of a (minor) edge case I think, but aren't a major problem.

I have no strong opinions on Elgin Marbles, and I haven't been following any debate around that one. In the abstract, I suspect resolving one claim of ownership wouldn't assist in resolving much of 'the debate', but as I say, a bit ignorance on that specific example you cite.

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