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Life as a Service

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Life as a Service

#31

Post by mootothemax »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #13

The essence of the (flawed) argument Jacques is making is in his passport section I need permission from my government if I want to leave the country. Oddly, that's not true. A passport is necessary to get into a country, not leave one. The distinction is subtle but important. You can if you wish as an adult, leave the country you are in, and if they will let you in, enter another with a different set of obligations.…

Oddly, that's not true. A passport is necessary to get into a country, not leave one.

Not true for me, at least. I live in Poland, which means I get passport-free travel (and ID-card free, for that matter) within the EU Schengen Area, but not when visiting my home country, the UK, since it's outside the Schengen area.

To visit the UK, I have to go via the scary ladies and gentlemen in glass booths with big guns strapped to their sides and show my passport (or ID card if I had one). I've travelled a few times to other countries outside the Schengen area, and each time the only way to get to the gate is via these booths. I'm pretty certain that there's no opt-out.

Poland's not alone in this; plenty of countries check your passport on departure. Last one I remember is Turkey, pretty sure when I was in India and Tunisia similar happened.

Re: Life as a Service

#32

Post by smoyer »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #13

The essence of the (flawed) argument Jacques is making is in his passport section I need permission from my government if I want to leave the country. Oddly, that's not true. A passport is necessary to get into a country, not leave one. The distinction is subtle but important. You can if you wish as an adult, leave the country you are in, and if they will let you in, enter another with a different set of obligations.…

I was working in Brazil on a fixed-term visa and presenting my passport upon entry and exit was my proof that I hadn't spent more than 90 days in the country.

Curiously, the government contract I was helping with ended when the project's assets were seized as part of an investigation into government corruption. Millions of Real worth of equipment is sitting locked in an evidence locker instead of benefiting society.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure all governments are flawed to one degree or another.

Re: Life as a Service

#33

Post by praptak »

msluyter wrote: post #26

"Even so, I’d be a lot happier paying taxes if there had been a moment where I was given the choice: pay taxes and have these benefits or be left to your own devices." Except that there's no (current, easy) way of excluding you from various public goods that are paid by taxes. Examples include national defense, public spaces like parks, public highways, fire protection (if you live in shared housing or simply close e…

Don't forget the money service - managing supply and providing guarantees for its value. Actually if you manage to exclude yourself from using this particular service you won't have to pay any taxes.

Re: Life as a Service

#34

Post by mynegation »

fingerprinter wrote: post #19
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #13

The essence of the (flawed) argument Jacques is making is in his passport section I need permission from my government if I want to leave the country. Oddly, that's not true. A passport is necessary to get into a country, not leave one. The distinction is subtle but important. You can if you wish as an adult, leave the country you are in, and if they will let you in, enter another with a different set of obligations.…

You need a passport to leave Australia. Australia has immigration on exit. Though, that is the only place I've seen this.

For me, it is the other way around: US and Canada don't check your passport at exit and when that happened to me for the first time I had to ask airport employee just to make sure I did not take a wrong turn or something. All of EU, All Latin America countries I've been to, Russia and Ukraine check passports and there were and still are countries that you cannot leave without explicit permission from governement (eg North Kirea and Kuba).

Re: Life as a Service

#35

Post by Zak »

msluyter wrote: post #26

"Even so, I’d be a lot happier paying taxes if there had been a moment where I was given the choice: pay taxes and have these benefits or be left to your own devices." Except that there's no (current, easy) way of excluding you from various public goods that are paid by taxes. Examples include national defense, public spaces like parks, public highways, fire protection (if you live in shared housing or simply close e…

In principle, I agree with you, but most of the things you list are relatively cheap.

In the United States (I know Jacques isn't American), the majority of the Federal budget is devoted to the military, interest on the national debt, various forms of free/subsidized insurance for the old and poor, and various forms of income support for the poor. The public goods other than national defense you list are very cheap in comparison to these things. Federal fuel taxes exceeded Federal highway spending in 2010 according to http://usgovernmentspending.com.

The US spends more on its military than the next ten countries combined, so there's a good chance it's possible to have effective national defense for an order of magnitude less than we currently pay. Most of the rest of the spending falls in to the category of supporting people who for whatever reason have difficulty supporting themselves.

There's a reasonable debate to be had about how and how much we want to provide support to some people by taxing others, but let's not pretend it's primarily about things like roads and fire departments.

Re: Life as a Service

#36

Post by eckyptang »

Some thoughts on this:

You have no obligation to conform to these laws at all. You are not born into a contract. A contract is a piece of paper which you can use to wipe your bum with if you wish.

You can in theory do what the hell you like. People regularly do. You can kill people, not pay tax, walk over the border of any country and urinate anywhere you like.

The only downside is that someone who does subscribe to the rules will probably throw you in jail or kill you without respecting your choice.

Fear of the above is the only reason that the law works at all.

When the law becomes bad for the population, which it really is under many common ethical principles these days and it is getting worse, we need to have a revolution to reset the badness.

There is no happy solution to adding legislation other than resetting it completely occasionally.

Dying and emigrating just bring their own legal problems.

Re: Life as a Service

#37

Post by olalonde »

> But it could be so much better if we really tried.

For anyone interested in alternative ways to improve government, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city

"A charter city is a city in which the governing system is defined by the city's own charter document rather than by state, provincial, regional or national laws."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading

"Seasteading is the concept of creating permanent dwellings at sea, called seasteads, outside the territory claimed by the government of any standing nation."

Re: Life as a Service

#38

Post by Paul_S »

Shop around for a country to live in. I wish countries were more accommodating about this.

In my dream world like minded people live in the same country. Just think of how great it would be if you didn't have to compromise because everyone in the country were on the same side of (for example) the liberal/conservative divide.

Re: Life as a Service

#39

Post by mibbitier »

msluyter wrote: post #26

"Even so, I’d be a lot happier paying taxes if there had been a moment where I was given the choice: pay taxes and have these benefits or be left to your own devices." Except that there's no (current, easy) way of excluding you from various public goods that are paid by taxes. Examples include national defense, public spaces like parks, public highways, fire protection (if you live in shared housing or simply close e…

One thing I've never understood, is why a seemingly large number of Americans don't seem to see the similarity between public fire protection, and a public health service.

Aren't these two things pretty essential for civilisation?

Re: Life as a Service

#40

Post by digitalWestie »

eckyptang wrote: post #36

Some thoughts on this: You have no obligation to conform to these laws at all. You are not born into a contract. A contract is a piece of paper which you can use to wipe your bum with if you wish. You can in theory do what the hell you like. People regularly do. You can kill people, not pay tax, walk over the border of any country and urinate anywhere you like. The only downside is that someone who does subscribe to…

Absolutely right - there is no formal contract.

What is being reflected on here is really a 'social contract' - see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

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