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Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

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Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#31

Post by sbierwagen »

schiffern wrote: post #16
jws wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. It's solar-powered. I wonder if they have a electricity backup... It's grid electric powered. The canopy doesn't do much. Let's calculate: Guess that the canopy for each bay is 7 by 4 meters, 28m^2 Sunny spots receive about 4kWhr of solar power per square meter per day. Solar panels might be 25% efficient. Total daily power: 28m^2 * 4kWhr/m^2/day * 0.25 = 28kWhr/day Model S has an 85kWhr battery, half charge is 42…

>It's grid electric powered. The canopy doesn't do much. They're sizing the installations in partnership with SolarCity, one of Musk's other start-ups. They claim they'll be sized such that it will generate as much energy over the course of the year as the vehicles consume. Meanwhile, you're estimating power output from a CG rendering on a marketing page. You could argue whether or not they're lying, but they're cert…

  generate as much energy over the course of the year as the 
  vehicles consume
Yeah right. At what utilization rate? A single charge is ~90KWh, and takes half an hour. Two charges back to back are 180KWh.

jws guesses that each slot generates 28KWh/day. A ten slot charging station would only be able to charge three cars without going into the red. Tesla would have to build a lot of very oversized installations in a lot of sunny, rural locations to hit breakeven.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#32

Post by danboarder »

revelation wrote: post #8
JohnsonB wrote: post #5

30 minutes to charge...still puzzled why Tesla has gone with the recharge model rather than the battery swap model ala Better Place.

Because the battery swap model doesn't exist. It's a cool idea, but it's not right here right now.

Drivers are already using battery swap stations in Israel and a few other test areas. Swap for a full battery takes less than 5 minutes. The cars built to work with this system are Renault and Nissan I believe. Check out the standardized batteries (drivers subscribe to a 'battery plan' so any full battery is works the same).

video: Drive Switch Go - Better Place

short video http://youtu.be/VR3oLV4fdcE longer video http://youtu.be/S3Os25gP4yA

//edited to add video links

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#33

Post by schiffern »

JohnsonB wrote: post #11
revelation wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the battery swap model doesn't exist. It's a cool idea, but it's not right here right now.

You can build swap stations incrementally though just like they are building these supercharging stations, so I don't see what the difference is, other than swapping is quicker/better.

> quicker/better

Quicker may be true, but "better"? Swap stations are more expensive, they constrain vehicle design, battery shape, and battery technology upgradeability. This makes the vehicle some combination of heavier, less safe, or more expensive (pick your poison).

People don't seem to realize that the limiting factor for charge rate isn't current. It's cooling. A far simpler solution would just pump coolant through the charging port so that a large off-board cooler can be used. The cells in the Leaf and Volt could be fully charged in 20 minutes with adequate cooling. Independent (though amateur) tests by RC hobbyists have demonstrated hundreds of cycles at that charge rate with little loss in capacity.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#34

Post by timdorr »

sbierwagen wrote: post #31
schiffern wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's grid electric powered. The canopy doesn't do much. They're sizing the installations in partnership with SolarCity, one of Musk's other start-ups. They claim they'll be sized such that it will generate as much energy over the course of the year as the vehicles consume. Meanwhile, you're estimating power output from a CG rendering on a marketing page. You could argue whether or not they're lying, but they're cert…

generate as much energy over the course of the year as the vehicles consume Yeah right. At what utilization rate? A single charge is ~90KWh, and takes half an hour. Two charges back to back are 180KWh. jws guesses that each slot generates 28KWh/day. A ten slot charging station would only be able to charge three cars without going into the red. Tesla would have to build a lot of very oversized installations in a lot o…

They could have solar only at some locations and excess capacity to make up for the locations without solar.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#35

Post by sbierwagen »

ph0rque wrote: post #23
jerrya wrote: post #20

Is it outrageous to think that eventually this "gas" will be free because outlets will compete to have Tesla and other electric customers stuck at their restaurant, bar, store for a half hour?

Another possible revenue stream is free for Tesla owners, and not free for other electric cars that support the "nozzle" (if Tesla allows others to use the same nozzle design).

The connector on the vehicle is proprietary, but there's an OEM adapter to use SAE J1772 connectors. (like the charging station near Google Kirkland: http://tmblr.co/ZStnmwKlXAF8 )

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#36

Post by timdorr »

trafficlight wrote: post #7
dave1619 wrote: post #3

I was looking forward to this announcement and watched the live announcement. The most interesting/surprising parts of the announcement to me was: 1. Superchargers are already deployed in California. Nice work, Tesla, for building it out and proving it works. 2. The whole U.S. will be covered in a few years. Great for traveling cross country. 3. It's solar-powered. I wonder if they have a electricity backup... probab…

It won't be free forever, but it's one less barrier to buying buying a Tesla.

No, Elon said free for life on the the announcement.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#37

Post by svmegatron »

If these become as popular as they seem like they should, I foresee long lines at the supercharging stations. I'm sure that 1. Tesla have thought of it and 2. They will milk the positive publicity from such an occurrence, but it could still be a PITA for, eg., folks who want to get home from Vegas.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#38

Post by sbierwagen »

jws wrote: post #10
dave1619 wrote: post #3

I was looking forward to this announcement and watched the live announcement. The most interesting/surprising parts of the announcement to me was: 1. Superchargers are already deployed in California. Nice work, Tesla, for building it out and proving it works. 2. The whole U.S. will be covered in a few years. Great for traveling cross country. 3. It's solar-powered. I wonder if they have a electricity backup... probab…

3. It's solar-powered. I wonder if they have a electricity backup... It's grid electric powered. The canopy doesn't do much. Let's calculate: Guess that the canopy for each bay is 7 by 4 meters, 28m^2 Sunny spots receive about 4kWhr of solar power per square meter per day. Solar panels might be 25% efficient. Total daily power: 28m^2 * 4kWhr/m^2/day * 0.25 = 28kWhr/day Model S has an 85kWhr battery, half charge is 42…

You'll only collect the total insolation if you use two-axis solar panel pointing. Fixed panels are less efficient. Depending on latitude, sometimes much less efficient:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/08/solar-data-treas...

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#39

Post by jerrya »

benackles wrote: post #30
JohnsonB wrote: post #5

30 minutes to charge...still puzzled why Tesla has gone with the recharge model rather than the battery swap model ala Better Place.

I agree. 30 minutes is too long to charge for any practical purpose. They're going to have to improve the wait time if they're going to break out of the uber EV geek community. The Better Place battery switching model, while it may not be feasible for current models it has to be the goal for future models. It also seems as thought there should be more partnerships involved in reaching the type of scale there going to…

If it was safe and quick, I would prefer the battery swap model because as it is now, I am terrified (maybe ignorance) of getting a bum set of batteries or mis-charging them, and ending up with a $5 - $10K bill for new batteries for my car. It would seem the swap model would most likely spread the cost and maintenance to many users and leave charging to the experts.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#40

Post by sbierwagen »

recuter wrote: post #17
revelation wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the battery swap model doesn't exist. It's a cool idea, but it's not right here right now.

I've been in a Better Place car here in Israel and experienced the swap, it works. Also, Shai Agassi recently completed a full cross country trip (North to South). Small country, but still. What makes you think this is not a viable solution?

"Small country" is a bit of an overstatement. If Israel was a US state, it'd be the 47th largest.
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