Meeting A Troll • Hacker News Board

Re: Meeting A Troll

#31

Post by zxcdw » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:29 AM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #22

that is not "trolling", that's (pretty bad) harassment. I get the feeling this is a story written to prove a point. Nobody would refer to this as "trolling".

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol".

I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go into the subject by mentioning some local websites and memes, kids open up voluntarily very well), it's exactly the online harassing and bullying which is considered(perhaps a form of) trolling. These are exactly the imageboard kids who find it cool to "piss people off". Why? "I dont know. For the lulz". It's like a hobby for some.

I personally find this stuff disgusting and directly relate it to bullying in school. Just because it happens online is not any more tolerable. Turns out many people disagree.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#32

Post by skeletonjelly » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:39 AM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #2

Wow ... I'd like to shake your hand because I think you handled your friend's son with an amazing amount of grace. It's horrible that you had to be tormented like that, but at 17 he may have learned how to be human. In my experience, not many of us understood empathy at that age. Let me know when you're in the U.S. and perhaps I can buy you a dinner.

Agreed. Always refreshing to see somebody putting in hard work to make this world a better place rather than taking the easier road (whatever that would have been).

Re: Meeting A Troll

#33

Post by sukuriant » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:42 AM UTC

zxcdw wrote: post #31

citricsquid wrote: post #22

that is not "trolling", that's (pretty bad) harassment. I get the feeling this is a story written to prove a point. Nobody would refer to this as "trolling".

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol". I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go…

Perhaps it's the intensity that's the real issue. I "troll" my friends with great frequency. Screw with them, tease them, hold clearly contrary positions just to get them riled up, but it's all in fun and stops before their feelings honestly get hurt (or if they are, I apologize). That's clearly a different level than the other sorts of trolling that I've seen. ... admittedly, people that are "from the internet" are familiar with trolling and know when they're being trolled. They can take the bait and play along, or stop it in its tracks by not feeding the troll the frustration he desires. People that aren't "from the internet", or perhaps aren't from the self-mocking parts of the internet haven't developed the thick skin (why should they?) required to deal with trolls.

... and I suppose some people just enjoy going after the people that aren't thick skinned. That's ... while fun to some, not really a civil thing to do. I suppose there's some level of initiation into the "Internet" that includes being trolled -- and trolling back, or growing some skin, etc. This wasn't one of those cases, from what I gathered (I didn't finish the article, as the very beginning it started looking clearly like harassment instead of the level of trolling I'm familiar with).

I started this response with a point, but I've lost it. Either way, there is clearly a level of taking it too far.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#34

Post by skeletonjelly » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:42 AM UTC

uiri wrote: post #24

mwhooker wrote: post #4

compelling story, but I'd like to know how he translated an ip address in to a street address.

It could have been something as simple as politely asking the ISP or the police. Given some of the circumstances which transpired and how difficult it may or may not be to get the ISP to give you the street address, I wouldn't be surprised if they went, or at least tried, that route. Keep in mind he translated three ip addresses into street addresses and two of them turned out to be public hotspots.

I doubt asking kindly would yield personal information. This kind of social engineering can be used for bad as well and I'd doubt they'd leave the justice and investigative powers in the hands of a citizen.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#35

Post by magobarca » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:43 AM UTC

I have to ask. Why was this young man given the opportunity to escape the law despite committing a hate crime. He threatened murder and rape. Would he have been afforded the privilege of a hand shake rather than hand cuffs if he was... say a member of a outgroup, say for example, an Arab?

Re: Meeting A Troll

#36

Post by citricsquid » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:45 AM UTC

zxcdw wrote: post #31

citricsquid wrote: post #22

that is not "trolling", that's (pretty bad) harassment. I get the feeling this is a story written to prove a point. Nobody would refer to this as "trolling".

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol". I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go…

Trolling is short term, it's fucking with someone for the sake of fucking with someone, anyone. If you attack one person over multiple years that becomes more than trolling, it becomes personal. Trolling is not personal. As you say, it's "for the lulz", it's to get a reaction, any reaction. If someone wants a reaction they don't care who from.

I've never met anyone that would call years of harassment that extended into real life "trolling". That's personal and it's a serious problem. I run a large forum (I'd guess some of the kids you mention use it) and I've had all manner of insults and threats, all of which are trolling, they're from people that want to annoy me or upset me but only because they see me as a target at that moment. If someone were to come to my house and leave things in my postbox, or mail me stuff, or follow me around the internet for years that would be harassment.

I just asked a bunch of my staff members (people that deal with this sort of thing every day) and everyone considers what the OP went through harassment, it's not in anyway considered trolling.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#37

Post by dkarl » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:58 AM UTC

zxcdw wrote: post #31

citricsquid wrote: post #22

that is not "trolling", that's (pretty bad) harassment. I get the feeling this is a story written to prove a point. Nobody would refer to this as "trolling".

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol". I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go…

Trolling means posting something insincere to elicit a response. The point of trolling is to fool the target into investing time and emotion into responding seriously. Insincerity is the defining aspect of trolling, and seeing the victim's response is how the troll gets his kicks. What the asshole kid in this story was definitely stalking, but it wasn't trolling unless he posed as an antisemitic hate-filled stalker for the malicious fun of watching the victim react. Unlikely. Honestly, I think the guy is being way too easy on the kid by calling him a troll. The kid is a stalker. The police should have been called, because he's likely to do it again.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#38

Post by AgathaTheWitch » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:59 AM UTC

I would have prosecuted the little shit.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#39

Post by zxcdw » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 2:08 AM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #36

zxcdw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol". I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go…

Trolling is short term, it's fucking with someone for the sake of fucking with someone , anyone. If you attack one person over multiple years that becomes more than trolling, it becomes personal. Trolling is not personal. As you say, it's "for the lulz", it's to get a reaction, any reaction. If someone wants a reaction they don't care who from. I've never met anyone that would call years of harassment that extended i…

I am not saying it is not harassment. Though, I don't consider the terms to be orthogonal(as in, they can co-exist within the same context). I am saying it is my understanding that many kids(not all) consider the stuff in the blog post as very successful trolling in fact. The act of trolling, as I see it, is to delibirately cause harm and grief to the victim regardless of means. What differs it from just simply bullying the victim is that it happens online, and that's how many (victims) have put it too.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#40

Post by Karunamon » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 2:09 AM UTC

magobarca wrote: post #35

I have to ask. Why was this young man given the opportunity to escape the law despite committing a hate crime. He threatened murder and rape. Would he have been afforded the privilege of a hand shake rather than hand cuffs if he was... say a member of a outgroup, say for example, an Arab?

Because the police were never involved directly. "He" was still legally a child, for one. For two, the author was unbelievably gracious enough to not take him straight to the cops.

A happy ending all around, really. Hopefully the teen idiot will have something good come of his counselling and the world will be a slightly better place.