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Why study programming languages (2022)

people.csail.mit.edu

31–40 of 118 posts

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#31
post #27

Programming languages are obsolete in the LLM era. What current generation AI has revealed is that English is actually the ultimate representation of computer programs and systems, which is both sufficiently terse and precise to economically describe the operation of arbitrarily complex programs. There is no reason to study programming languages in 2025, other than as a historical curiosity - the same way one may stu…

Sarcasm, right?

The best way to get a strong answer is to post boldly incorrect statements. Then I get other people to write my actually-desired arguments for me.

I call it, "wetware LLM prompt engineering".

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#32
post #2

I tries to answer the question "Why do we design new programming languages?" but it forgets the simplest of answers: Because we can. Because a compiler is nothing more than a fancy text translator.

I'm not a 'native' programmer, but even I can agree with that.

As it became easier to abstract away from pure assembly, people did just that. Some ideas stuck, some converged, and the ones with the most tenacious, adaptable and attractive communities remained.

Before I learned to code, no programming language was even remotely readable to me. But the more I learned, the more I could shed the notion that this was purely my fault, and accept that sometimes things are a certain way because someone found it interesting or useful. Applies to natural languages and mathematics, too.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is that a problem of the language itself, or is it just a problem of available toolchains? E.g. if the gcc compiler collection would come with BASIC support and you just could type something like "gbasic -O3 foobar.bas -o foobar" to get a properly optimised executable out of your BASIC source code file then some may would still use BASIC today, I guess? I started with BASIC too. Also enjoyed BlitzBasic2 for a lon…

Realistically? No, not at all. The reason there are no toolchains for BASIC is because nobody uses BASIC (because it's not functional in our modern world), not the other way round.

Why do you think BASIC is not functional? Our modern world does not differ from the 1980 world at all. Variables are variables, subroutines are subroutines.

It fall out of fashion, along with Pascal, Perl, Ruby, but that's just fashion.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#34
The appeal of experimenting with languages varies widely between academics and industrial practitioners. When you’re in the business of creating languages, exploration often takes on the character of an art project.

However, as a trench-line coder, I enjoy dabbling in languages to learn different techniques for achieving a similar set of goals without sacrificing pragmatism. In that sense, I rarely have the luxury to explore purely for exploration’s sake. So I wouldn’t describe abstraction, performance, or usability as “aesthetics,” nor would I spend time on a frivolous language that I know won’t gain much traction outside academia.

I like reading the perspectives of academics just to see how wildly different they are from those of the people I work with in the industry. This is probably a good thing.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically? No, not at all. The reason there are no toolchains for BASIC is because nobody uses BASIC (because it's not functional in our modern world), not the other way round.

Why do you think BASIC is not functional? Our modern world does not differ from the 1980 world at all. Variables are variables, subroutines are subroutines. It fall out of fashion, along with Pascal, Perl, Ruby, but that's just fashion.

I have even seen pretty darn impressive things done with VisualBasic back in the day. And that were not hobby things. I've seen it used in very important mission critical telecommunication equipment. The compiler was custom, not the one from Microsoft. After all, the language had pretty much anything other languages had.

How can a language be "inefficient"? You can say it lacked on expressiveness. Maybe was too verbose? But I would not place BASIC into the "verbose" category.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#37
> Usability is similarly ill-defined and hard to measure.

Human factors are very well studied and standardized, and there is a well-established discipline called "Human Factors Engineering", which also provides established test and evaluation methods. Human Factors research is considered solid and well-established because it has been built on rigorous experimental psychology and engineering principles developed over more than a century, with systematic methodology and empirical validation. Even if much of it is unknown or ignored by computer science or programming language design, there are many disciplines where Human Factors Engineering is critical (see e.g. ANSI/AAMI HE75).

Usability is therefore neither ill-defined nor hard to measure. Several ISO 9241 series standards address textual and command-based interaction directly relevant to programming language assessment. ETSI EG 202 116 provides extensive human factors guidelines for command language style. ITU-T Recommendation Z.361 provides guidelines for Human-Computer Interfaces in telecommunications management, incorporating the ISO 9241-10 dialogue principles. ISO/IEC TR 24772 addresses programming language vulnerabilities specifically from a human factors perspective.

E.g. Ada did have substantial human factors considerations documented in its design rationale, directly contradicting the notion that such principles don't apply to professional developers or programming languages. It's rather that computer science seems to continue ignoring established fields ("Not invented here"). Human factors in software development have been overlooked by researchers in the software engineering and development research areas, despite their obvious relevance. So what is lacking is primarily interest or willingness, not the fundamentals and means.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically? No, not at all. The reason there are no toolchains for BASIC is because nobody uses BASIC (because it's not functional in our modern world), not the other way round.

Why do you think BASIC is not functional? Our modern world does not differ from the 1980 world at all. Variables are variables, subroutines are subroutines. It fall out of fashion, along with Pascal, Perl, Ruby, but that's just fashion.

I hate that languages have become fads. The concepts have not changed, but there is a constant churn of languages.

I don't have to relearn natural language every 5-10 years, but for some reason I'm expected to when it comes to programming.

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#39
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because what we know about programming has progressed, and new languages appear to take advantage of that.

Many new languages are still recycling ideas from the 1970's research labs. Outside affine types, all the praise for Rust's type system traces back to Standard ML from 1976. The heretic of doing systems programming in GC enabled programming languages (GC in the CS sense, including RC), goes back to research at Xerox PARC, DEC and ETHZ, late 1970's, early 1980's. Other things that we know, like dependent types, effect…

It seams like most things boil down to ideas from the 70's. The internet, distributed computing, AI, etc...

Re: Why study programming languages (2022)

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcasm, right?

The best way to get a strong answer is to post boldly incorrect statements. Then I get other people to write my actually-desired arguments for me. I call it, "wetware LLM prompt engineering".

And the wetware often refuses to do that and simply downvotes you. How dare they.
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