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Making regular GPS ultra-precise

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31–40 of 68 posts

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#31
RTK = Trimble Navigation.

Even back in 1999 prior to Selective Availability (SA) zeroing[0], fixed base station-assisted (pre-WAAS DGPS RTK) could achieve 10 mm horizontal accuracy and 1 m vertical accuracy. It was good enough that farming, mining (above ground), and earth-moving equipment could combine 2 receivers to determine tool angle and cut depth.

0. SA was an injected random error for security reasons that was constant for a local area, so it was weak security because it could be easily defeated if a fixed base station's position was known by subtracting it in the RTK receiver via DGPS update.

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#32
post #23

Precision GPS is useful for a lot of things, but not for safety. Until we equip every deer, child, and pavement heave with a GPS saying exactly where it is cars will need "something" else to detect hazards. That GPS needs to be 100% reliable, even though we cannot predict when a child will attempt to run outside naked (without their GPS position transmitter), or the pavement will decide to fail (presumably without up…

The social norm that we seem to be slowly stumbling into assumes a different state of affairs:

That the roadways ought to always be clear of anything but cars which are behaving normally, and that if you can keep a car in the lane then anything unusual which happens isn't the car driver's fault.

Debris, animals, children, pedestrians, cyclists, motorcycles, stopped cars, construction workers and their vehicles, and anything else in our complex world that may find its way into the road - these aren't visible to someone blinded by oncoming headlights at night, they don't register in the same way as a car in the peripheral vision of someone looking at their cell phone or touchscreen controls, they may not be detected by radar cruise sensors or lane centering cameras, they certainly won't register on a GPS navigation track...and in a collision, society increasingly blames the thing that wasn't ~~supposed to be there~~ *anticipated* to be there rather than the driver which crashed into the thing.

I recognize that the likely cause of this is simply the infrequency of those events. Spend a few thousand miles seeing little other than cars on the road, and it's easier for your brain to assume that cars are the only thing that can be on the road. But my skeptical, cynical, conspiracy-minded side wonders if some of this trend is encouraged by submarine marketing efforts from self-driving vendors - the problem gets a lot easier when your "autonomous" vehicle isn't at fault for hitting a pedestrian in the road and you can just follow a GPS track while sensing for 5000 lbs steel boxes following the same GPS track.

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#33
post #23

Precision GPS is useful for a lot of things, but not for safety. Until we equip every deer, child, and pavement heave with a GPS saying exactly where it is cars will need "something" else to detect hazards. That GPS needs to be 100% reliable, even though we cannot predict when a child will attempt to run outside naked (without their GPS position transmitter), or the pavement will decide to fail (presumably without up…

If/when QPS is realized, calibration to a fixed point via manual verification, fixed base station(s), and/or multiple GNSS systems then GNSS spoofing, accuracy, and precision won't matter all that much because it will be entirely self-contained.

It's absurd overkill to put GNSS transmitters, RFID tags, and/or Bluetooth beacons on every object because the world is being flooded, for better or worse, with AI visual and IR cameras.

> Prevision GPS is useful for a lot of things, but it isn't needed for car navigation. If you know within 100 meters of where you are you can figure out the exact lane you are in by other clues - clues that you need to look for anyway because road/utility crews will sometimes direct you to do things that are not on your updated maps.

Except it is because driving direction routing depends on determination is based upon knowing which of several parallel, different roads one is on like the difference between being on a highway and on a parallel frontage road. Incorrect road detection leads to offering wrong directions.

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#34
post #3

Why don’t cities have ground beacons for this? Much cheaper than satellites and would be guaranteed to see heavy use

There's no need with hybrid positioning in cellular location chipsets that use cell towers, one or more GNSS constellations, and/or a WiFi SSID GIS database (like Skyhook).

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#35
post #3

Why don’t cities have ground beacons for this? Much cheaper than satellites and would be guaranteed to see heavy use

Some places have free RTK networks their citizens can use. Michigan's department of transportation, for instance, runs a CORS network that anyone can request access to. (At least as far as I can tell. The signup form doesn't ask for affiliation or payment.) It's just distributed over the internet, the assumption being that you probably have internet access already. One of these days I'll figure out how to set up a fr…

Why a special wifi? Why not just multicast streaming over the internet?

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#36
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some places have free RTK networks their citizens can use. Michigan's department of transportation, for instance, runs a CORS network that anyone can request access to. (At least as far as I can tell. The signup form doesn't ask for affiliation or payment.) It's just distributed over the internet, the assumption being that you probably have internet access already. One of these days I'll figure out how to set up a fr…

While we're at it, could we also broadcast navigation map updates via that FM stream?

Why over a special radio system? Why not over the internet?

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#37
post #23

Precision GPS is useful for a lot of things, but not for safety. Until we equip every deer, child, and pavement heave with a GPS saying exactly where it is cars will need "something" else to detect hazards. That GPS needs to be 100% reliable, even though we cannot predict when a child will attempt to run outside naked (without their GPS position transmitter), or the pavement will decide to fail (presumably without up…

I don't get it.

I can see how precision GPS is not required for safety, and how it is not sufficient for safety, but can you elaborate on why reducing noise in this signal is not even useful?

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#38

Galileo HAS allows precision down to 30cm with enough integration time. Without additional external data. For free. Receivers slowly hitting the market now - a year ago this was only receivable by SDR-driven devices.

That's not so good. 24-channel GPS can do while moving (that's RTK) using (free in most areas) WAAS. Fusion constellation many channel GNSS receivers with clear terrain can do about as good without DGPS (of which RTK is a subset). There's really no reason not to use as many constellations and as many satellites as possible to reduce error more quickly.

I really hope QPS works, becomes available to the public, and decreases in cost quickly because it would make GNSSes more of a backup and calibration system than a primary system. Hybrid location chipsets in mobile handsets use a fusion of many technologies and techniques which would be really cool to have QPS especially for underground metro systems and inside buildings with lots of signal-attenuating materials.

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#39
post #6

Nothing in this article is new, and the problem with RTK has always been the (unpaid) availability of reference stations. Good on them for trying to make a package of it, but maybe this "news" site could've used a bit less unchecked enthusiasm. Also, RTK is the opposite of "regular" GPS, it's generally considered a "special" usage mode of GPS. And discussing urban canyons with no mention of QZSS?

Using building geometry to correct gnss signals is new.

Re: Making regular GPS ultra-precise

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some places have free RTK networks their citizens can use. Michigan's department of transportation, for instance, runs a CORS network that anyone can request access to. (At least as far as I can tell. The signup form doesn't ask for affiliation or payment.) It's just distributed over the internet, the assumption being that you probably have internet access already. One of these days I'll figure out how to set up a fr…

Why a special wifi? Why not just multicast streaming over the internet?

So you can deploy a bazillion devices without each one needing internet access, which typically has a cost because there's administrative overhead to handling abuse complaints, etc, that come along with full internet access.

If all you got was a one-way stream of data with no internet access (assume your CORS virtual station location is the AP's location, so no need to even pick your own mountpoint) then the abuse potential is basically nil. Just like with FM RDS and stuff, it's just a broadcast that you receive, you can't do anything bad with it. It's not internet, it's just one-way data. Difference being that a lot of microcontrollers now have wifi MAC/PHY built in, whereas FM would need more silicon.

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